GETTING MARRIED - why bother?

[jazzman]

A strange topic indeed, perhaps, for a board dedicated to building houses, but...
in a country where a traditional, festive, ceremony is all that is required to bless the relationship with common decency, it may be worth considering whether the steps to sealing the partnership at city hall are necessary at all. Apart from making it easier for your wife to obtain a visa to visit your country, it may have some surprises in store.
If you are single and planning on settling in Thailand for any length of time there are two things you are probably going to think about organising: a home and a partner. In Thailand it is easy enough to rent both, but houses and spouses for hire are probably a short-term solution and as houses and land are relatively cheap for those living in the Land of Smiles on a Western salary or pension, many people consider opting for something more permanent.

However, different countries also have very different laws and customs and whether we like it or not, it’s up to us to adapt and not the other way round and although Thailand is the world’s No.1 resort for rent-a-date relationships, it is surprisingly conservative, and while there is no real stigma attached to availing of, or working in the flesh trade, living in sin is very much frowned upon and is not acceptable at all in the more respected levels of the social order.

To build a house - which can be yours - you'll need some land which cant be, and to protect your investment it is a good idea to make sure you can’t be thrown off it. Thus in the case of current legislation, we are faced with the choice of what to do first: get married or acquire the land. The choice can have some serious implications concerning the protection of your investment, and what you do first could set the scene, and can either facilitate or complicate the other step. There are plenty of topics on this board discussing the various available options for gaining control of land in this country where farangs are not allowed to own any, and the land you will build on may already belong to your wife or intended bride, or you might be considering purchasing it in her name.

There are four major options for obtaining land through your wife:
• lease
• usufruct
• superficies
• a combination of these

The important thing to be aware of is that the level of protection of the usufruct and/or the superficies could be reduced enormously if you and your legally wedded wife should decide to go your own ways, and you could stand to lose a substantial amount, if not all, of your property. Usually the cheap solutions are for those who will cannot or do not wish to afford to pay a lease nor otherwise wish to indemnify a wife for the land she has brought into the marriage. As a lady’s legal rights change with legalised marriage, whichever way you look at it, if your wife’s name appears on the chanote or if your chosen solution requires it to be, you will need to be aware of the current laws. One lawyer specialised in farang affairs provides this interpretation:

If you are legally married to the owner, Thai lawyers disagree on the application of article 1469 CCCT. This article mentions that all agreements made between spouses can be cancelled by the Court at the request of one party, unless agreements affect third parties. According to one interpretation, "publicity" or registration affect third parties and a usufruct can't be cancelled. According to the other interpretation, we have to search for the spirit of the law and it looks like Thai law wanted to end all relations between spouses in case of divorce, even usufruct agreements. A way to avoid the application of 1469 CCCT would be to have a second agreement (like a lease) affecting a third party before the Court could cancel your usufruct agreement.

Whichever way you look at it, the land will never be yours for keeps after your death so you are unable to bequeath it, (although an expensive look at the law may reveal some workarounds if it is really important), and if you are much over 50, a renewable 30-year least might satisfy your needs.

Whatever you decide to do, don’t base it on the “I’ve got a friend who knows someone who did this...” stories, but talk to those who have the fist hand experience. If that does not provide the answers you hoped for, get some expert legal advice, but be very careful whom you get it from, as some law firms are more interested in selling solutions that earn them the most money. A good lawyer will be able to tell you tell you what your options are and will only charge you for drawing up and notarising the documents. But still get quotes and compare their prices.

[thaifly]

gidday TO THE GREAT JAZZMAN..... another excellent post.....ITS a jazz of a gidday to all ....ITS THE THAIFLY FROM MAE RIM

[jazzman]

Thanks Thaifly
I may also add that Thaifly is one of the 'first-hand' experience people who can give advice from his own perspective. Do remember though, that it's possible that no two cases are identical, and your solution may come from an accumulation of his experience, my experience, and that of a couple of other CTH members who have walked up the same aisle.

[jazzman]

Why bother getting officially married when a Buddhist ceremony is all that is required to comply with local mores?

In another thread,

If a married couple has a combined income of B40,000 per month they can apply for a one year visa...
At the time we weren't thinking about buying land and I didn't realize the implications, however in hindsight I think I still would have proceeded with the registration. BTW, my wife doesn't consider us married because we've never had any kind of ceremony.

A most valuable piece of first-hand information.

[thaifly]

gidday to all ....its the thaifly from mae rim.... prior to looking for land some 4 1/2 yrs ago and buying at MAE RIM... 3yrs ago ...i sought the advice of a good lawyer...who advised me on what route i should take.... i then said to my SHELIA... this is the deal..LUMP IT..OR LEAVE IT.....I HAVE A 30 BY 30 YR LEASING AGREEMENT....WITH SPECIAL RIDER CLAUSES ATTACH TO IT... SIGN SEALED AND DELIVERED ... AND STAMPED BY THE MAE RIM LAND S DEPT and i felt a sigh of releif when my name was written on the back of the channote papers...as it does give you some security.... BULLETT PROOF WHO KNOWS????......BUT AS I SAID IN A EARLIER POST... i feel its a good bargaining chip to have IF THE s**t HITS THE FAN......I FEEL VERY COMFORTABLE WITH ABOVE... but as the great jazzman said we might not have the same view... HORSES FOR COURSES so to speak...by the way we just had a buddist cermoneny...we have been together for 6 yrs and happy ones at that...and i sincerely hope they will continue to .... I SPROUT DAISIES....WITH A BOTTLE OF RED AUSSIE OF COURSE......ITS A HOPE IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN GIDDAY TO ALL ....ITS THE THAIFLY FROM MAE RIM

[Smithson]

Another good informative thread, although I have a comment on one line; "living in sin is very much frowned upon and is living in sin is very much frowned upon and is not acceptable at all in the more respected levels of the social order.

From my experience living together is accepted and commonplace. Unless you're living in your spouses hometown then people will mind their own business. It may "not (be) acceptable at all in the more respected levels of the social order", but how many farangs are moving in those circles or can afford to worry what these ppl are thinking? Let's face it, the 'elite' tend to look down on most people.

Not trying to find fault, just thought it was worth mentioning, because these 'simple' ceremonies can be quite expensive. I've had friends naively agree to visit gf's villages and then find themselves bullied into marriage and dowry etc.

[thaifly]

GIDDAY SMITHY...its the thaifly from mae rim.......firstly 20 k ...fee for your lawyer.....son you have been BEATEN UP BIG TIME.... but use the old adage....ONCE BITTEN TWICE SHY........ some useful advice.......with due respect to living here...remember that you are living in their backyard...KEEP YOUR GUARD UP AT ALL TIMES.... but generally speaking the rip off merchants are few in between....and plain old commonsense can sux them out.... you are doing your research on the mud house very well......why????? again common sense....and matey as for living in sin ..in you post.....who gives a s**t....as long as you find happiness....living in thailand....as i have .... ITS A WORD OF WISDOM GIDDAY TO ALL ...ITS THE THAI FLY FROM MAE RIM

[Smithson]

Thaifly, words of wisdom as always. To be honest if I had of done it myself it would have cost more. Maybe I could have found some else to do it and save a few grand, but looking at the bigger picture, it's peanuts.

As for the mud house, just throwing around some ideas...but that's for another thread.

Not living in sin, just warning others to avoid unnecessarily expensive weddings, because 20K is nothing in comparison. BTW, are you married

[Nawty]

I was quoted by my lawyer in Bkk...a competent one...7k to do a usufruct on some land.

Now take this into context....travel 2 and a half hours each way, do the deed, make sure it is done properly, make sure the land office is not one where they do not understand or have never done a usufruct, make sure no problems popping up being a foreigners name etc, plus make several other enquiries on the day.

7k on a property valued at a reasoanble price and for the peace of mind it is done properly and secure, documents translated into english inclusive....good english translations this time, not kindergarten jibbersih from incompetent people pretending to be great lawyers....

Now I could just get a local dude to pop down and do it, but I do not know him, nor do I trust him to do it properly perhaps, nor do I know his translation will be good, nor do I know if his english is so good that I can sit and talk to him freely for several hours about everything and have it explained perfectly, not by a receptionist come translator that cannot even answer a simple question. But the comfort of using my guy who is known to me and that 7k is a pittance for it and in the overall context. Yes I could save 5 or 6k probably, but I do not need to save 5 or 6k that bad.

Also, my lawyer quoted me 5k for a will, while you can go to the amphur and do one for 100b I believe. Most other lawyers, even an incompetent one I know quoted 10k and they cannot even provide a simple understandable translation with that. So why pay 5k against 100b...well its like getting all your wishes and requests down in writing and making sure it is understood against the context of the law and the inheritence laws here. Making sure that all your wishes are clear and defined and that your intention of the will and how you execute it is carried out the correct way and hopefully there is no problems after you are dead dead dead.

Also, all of these usufructs and wills and leases depend on 'the spirit' of the agreements and arrangements. If you have a little wife or gf that is a drain on you, then chances are you are wasting your time and money on various things like this. If she is a loving and normal wife, then the 'spirit' of the arrangements are totally different.

[Nawty]

I live in sin and love it.

Also it seems many hi-so people with business and property interests are also doing the same these days.

[jazzman]

yeah yeah hold ya hoses, patiense......I busy complaining about laywers and my anger and harted for the world....gotit ?

Nobody can argue with that.

Did you hear about the farang who went into the Nissan depot to but a new car? Only 200,000 baht, but the wheels were an optional extra for another 500,000. But he did ask first before paying his money.
7k is fine for a BKK lawyer, who is legally allowed to practice in the country, to go all the way up to Pak Chong and do a usufruct and all the translations. Some lawyers charge more than double that without blushing. Looks as if you got yourself a deal.

[Smithson]

Also, all of these usufructs and wills and leases depend on 'the spirit' of the agreements and arrangements. If you have a little wife or gf that is a drain on you, then chances are you are wasting your time and money on various things like this. If she is a loving and normal wife, then the 'spirit' of the arrangements are totally different.

This is an excellent piece of advice. We cannot own land here, we can only pay for it and have Thais help as gain use. Whether it be a wife or a friend, if we don't have a strong relationship with lots of trust it will be a rocky road.

[thaifly]

I've had friends naively agree to visit gf's villages and then find themselves bullied into marriage and dowry etc.

gidday smithy its the thaifly from mae rim...yeah cobber whats a few thousand baht ...put it down to inexperience..and you will learn from it...tell you cobber i was badly beaten up ....by our last building contractor..cut man had to work overtime in my corner to see me up and ready for the bell of the next round.. INSTALLING A SPRINKLER SYSTEM AND LAYING OF TURF OVER 2650 SQ METERS...AND SPREAD OVER 4 SPLIT LEVELS..ETC...INDEED A BIG JOB... and it would be remiss of me not to mentioned THE GREAT JAZZMANS....free advice...on what to look out for....about DOWRYS......i can tell you how much to DONATE..???... as much as little..as one can afford...in other words it depends on how SILLY YOU ARE... as for the extended family.... FURTHER AWAY THE BETTER....dont worry THE HEAVY DUKE WILL COME OUT IN DUE COURSE... in saying that i guess there are come cases which are O.K....BUT VERY RARE INDEED ........ SO ITS A LONG LEFT JAB OF A GIDDAY TO ALL its the thai fly from mae rim

[Smithson]

Another thing, spouses are entitled to 50% of assets bought while legally married. Even though farang may not be allowed to own land, they can force a sale through the courts. Sure it sounds neither fun nor easy, but it has been done.

[Smithson]

tell you cobber i was badly beaten up ....by our last building contractor..

I've heard so many nightmares that it's nearly driven me insane, enough to make you consider living in a mud and bamboo hut!