Lawyer to avoid.....In the interest in saving any individuals from the problems I have had with this highly incompetent and unprofesional company, I would like anybody that is looking for a lawyer here in Los to avoid the problems I had with this highly inconpetemt company and to avoid them at all costs.
This forum is all about souring information and helping each other with the pro's and cons of building a home or whatever here in Los.
It is about helping people not make mistakes and cotsing you money. The wrong incompetent lawyer at a time when you need a very good one could cost you plenty in many ways.
Luckily I treat all of this as a learning curve and it has been a valuable earn for the future. So in a way I can thank my incompetent lawyers, much as I have thanked many other idiots and incompetents and sharks and scoundrels over the years here. It makes one wieser and stronger here.
Having entered the Thai legal system without any personal knowledge of its workings, we as many others foreigners do in a strange country, rely on others and hopefully, reliable, honest and professional people which we employ to do these things for and with us.
It is like entering a dark cave and not knowing what is in there or the way out, but what you learn on the way through and out is what makes your time here valuable.
Learn from my experience and I get a little bit of gratilude knowing others who bother to enquire will avoid at least this company. Of course it could also happen with another company, but at least his one you will know to give a big miss to.
Lawyer to avoid
Moderators: MGV12, BKKBILL, Sometimewoodworker
There are quite a few lawyer companies here, whom I would put on a list to avoid. The one I'm thinking of first of all cost me a lot of money, and I know of at least 2 others who have been clients there and who had big problems too. And if I say "big problems" I mean big problems. Such as sitting in your office, open to the public, and the lawyer company not only fails to extend your work permit, but also keeps that secret from you. I assume you know what happens to farangs working here without work permit ... 
I smelled the rat just in time to save myself, but these 2 had to leave the country to get new Visas, despite being here for years, and despite having for years their annual visa extension done at immigration here, successfully, never problems, running companies and paying lots of taxes, etc etc.
What to do to avoid such problems?
Well, if a lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, tells you that you need to pay an additional 50000 baht, under the table, to get your workpermit in Chonburi, despite having all paperwork in perfect condition, then run quickly, he will pocket that 50000 and probably has no clue how to get a work permit anyway.
If that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, tells you that only the special auditor they use can save you from annoying and expensive control visits by the department of revenue etc, because he would write the right comments in your financial status, and that's why the audit costs more then at other places, then run away quickly. Their auditor is a junior who costs the same as everywhere else, but they pocket the difference. On top of their fees.
If that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, registers your fresh and virgin company with VAT, despite you not asking for it, then run away quickly. Usually that only means more costs and more complicated paperwork for you and so more reason to employ his services.
If you feel tired and you want to relax and let your company be inactive for a while, and you ask this lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, to declare your company as "sleeping" to the authorities, and the guy tells you that you cannot do that because your company is "too young" or "too old" or "too small" or "too whatever" then run away quickly, he only wants you to keep paying his monthly accounting service bill.
If that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, tries to make you scared that it would so dangerous and difficult to be a farang here, and the authorities would be sooner or later going for you, but not to worry, he and his company and their good relations to the authorities and the HISO families or the highest family in Thailand would protect you, then run away quickly. He obviously needs an easy and naive cow to milk.
These two guys I mentioned before, in the meantime one of them managed to get his situation cleaned up, in an easy and friendly conversation with the authorities, explaining the situation and asking friendly for help, and with a little help of a friend, a Thai friend, using the appropriate words, he got it back, his work permit, with no bribes involved whatsoever. The Thais are usually nice and friendly and helpful, at least if you approach them friendly, or simply put, treat them as humans and all is easy. (Please note that this statement is not meant to be valid for the farang or Thai lowlife in Pattaya).
What do you say? You wanna know who is that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant ?
Nah, I won't say it here. Open your eyes and look yourself, above I gave you some signs to look for. But keep in mind that even if a lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, has offices all over Thailand, or at least in the 4 major cities, such as Chiang Mai, Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok, and even if there are Farangs involved, and even if they wave with a Swiss flag, you should still be carefull, look for the signs I mentioned above, apply common sense and do some due diligence.
Now with that off my chest I have also to say that we farangs are sometimes not easy. Often I feel ashamed when I see other farangs demonstrating an incredible amount of rudeness, baseness and mendaciousness, blaming the Thais for everything wrong in their life, instead of simply looking into the mirror... disgusting
Don't be one of them, please!
I smelled the rat just in time to save myself, but these 2 had to leave the country to get new Visas, despite being here for years, and despite having for years their annual visa extension done at immigration here, successfully, never problems, running companies and paying lots of taxes, etc etc.
What to do to avoid such problems?
Well, if a lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, tells you that you need to pay an additional 50000 baht, under the table, to get your workpermit in Chonburi, despite having all paperwork in perfect condition, then run quickly, he will pocket that 50000 and probably has no clue how to get a work permit anyway.
If that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, tells you that only the special auditor they use can save you from annoying and expensive control visits by the department of revenue etc, because he would write the right comments in your financial status, and that's why the audit costs more then at other places, then run away quickly. Their auditor is a junior who costs the same as everywhere else, but they pocket the difference. On top of their fees.
If that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, registers your fresh and virgin company with VAT, despite you not asking for it, then run away quickly. Usually that only means more costs and more complicated paperwork for you and so more reason to employ his services.
If you feel tired and you want to relax and let your company be inactive for a while, and you ask this lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, to declare your company as "sleeping" to the authorities, and the guy tells you that you cannot do that because your company is "too young" or "too old" or "too small" or "too whatever" then run away quickly, he only wants you to keep paying his monthly accounting service bill.
If that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, tries to make you scared that it would so dangerous and difficult to be a farang here, and the authorities would be sooner or later going for you, but not to worry, he and his company and their good relations to the authorities and the HISO families or the highest family in Thailand would protect you, then run away quickly. He obviously needs an easy and naive cow to milk.
These two guys I mentioned before, in the meantime one of them managed to get his situation cleaned up, in an easy and friendly conversation with the authorities, explaining the situation and asking friendly for help, and with a little help of a friend, a Thai friend, using the appropriate words, he got it back, his work permit, with no bribes involved whatsoever. The Thais are usually nice and friendly and helpful, at least if you approach them friendly, or simply put, treat them as humans and all is easy. (Please note that this statement is not meant to be valid for the farang or Thai lowlife in Pattaya).
What do you say? You wanna know who is that lawyer, or accountant, or consultant ?
Nah, I won't say it here. Open your eyes and look yourself, above I gave you some signs to look for. But keep in mind that even if a lawyer, or accountant, or consultant, has offices all over Thailand, or at least in the 4 major cities, such as Chiang Mai, Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok, and even if there are Farangs involved, and even if they wave with a Swiss flag, you should still be carefull, look for the signs I mentioned above, apply common sense and do some due diligence.
Now with that off my chest I have also to say that we farangs are sometimes not easy. Often I feel ashamed when I see other farangs demonstrating an incredible amount of rudeness, baseness and mendaciousness, blaming the Thais for everything wrong in their life, instead of simply looking into the mirror... disgusting
Don't be one of them, please!Some people are quick to complain about products and/or services they have had here in Thailand. It comes partly from the paranoia of expecting to be ripped off - which of course is no unwise caution to take.
However, there are many instances that , if the full facts were known and examined very carefully, often the farang was in the wrong in the very first place, or wasn't taking quite enough care of what the people around him were saying or doing. Because of linguistic and societal differences, it isn't always easy to follow the plot.
Probably any lawyers who have been recommended on this site, have been well spoken of because they deserve it. One dissatisfied client won't break them, and if the client is dissatisfied, it usually turns out that the lawyer wasn't given the full facts to be able to build a complete case - or there were too many other people in the client's party just confusing the issue. Anyway, as a mediator in one or two tussles for friends and acquaintances, that's what I found.
Legal tangles need very clear thinking, certainty of the facts, then acting before the reason for tort gets diluted by time. Our disadvantages here are that Western lawyers are not allowed to practice in LOS, they can only be paralegals of an established Thai law office, and judges will invariably decide in favour of the Thai party, sometimes however illogically. They feel it is their duty to squeeze farangs for all they can get, which is also apparent in one or two other sectors of Thai society.
Nevertheless, if one stays out of trouble, LOS is still a very nice place to be.
However, there are many instances that , if the full facts were known and examined very carefully, often the farang was in the wrong in the very first place, or wasn't taking quite enough care of what the people around him were saying or doing. Because of linguistic and societal differences, it isn't always easy to follow the plot.
Probably any lawyers who have been recommended on this site, have been well spoken of because they deserve it. One dissatisfied client won't break them, and if the client is dissatisfied, it usually turns out that the lawyer wasn't given the full facts to be able to build a complete case - or there were too many other people in the client's party just confusing the issue. Anyway, as a mediator in one or two tussles for friends and acquaintances, that's what I found.
Legal tangles need very clear thinking, certainty of the facts, then acting before the reason for tort gets diluted by time. Our disadvantages here are that Western lawyers are not allowed to practice in LOS, they can only be paralegals of an established Thai law office, and judges will invariably decide in favour of the Thai party, sometimes however illogically. They feel it is their duty to squeeze farangs for all they can get, which is also apparent in one or two other sectors of Thai society.
Nevertheless, if one stays out of trouble, LOS is still a very nice place to be.
Not all judges take the side of Thai, in fact it has been my experience to hear of cases which have simply followed the law and whichever side is correct wins. many foreigners have won in thai courts, both big and small cases. The key is preparation and knowledge.
While I prepared, my lawyers did not. While I prepared I did not have the knowledge of how the courts and judges worked, so I did not prepare enough obviously. But thats what your lawyers are there for right ??
I can assure you that the lawyers I used were totally at fault for the loss and incompetence. I shall shortly have evidence of this and you cannot argue against that.
Anybody who in future reads this thread and then engages the services of the same lawyers simply take their future into their own hands in ignorance.
The bottom line is there are hundreds of lawyers out there and by choosing another, you will not do worse, in fact you have a very good chance of doing better.
Also this 'farang' friendly firm was so incompentent they could not even translate a document correctly, so much so that I had trouble reading it and I can usually decipher the best 'tinglish' sms's !!!!
While I prepared, my lawyers did not. While I prepared I did not have the knowledge of how the courts and judges worked, so I did not prepare enough obviously. But thats what your lawyers are there for right ??
I can assure you that the lawyers I used were totally at fault for the loss and incompetence. I shall shortly have evidence of this and you cannot argue against that.
Anybody who in future reads this thread and then engages the services of the same lawyers simply take their future into their own hands in ignorance.
The bottom line is there are hundreds of lawyers out there and by choosing another, you will not do worse, in fact you have a very good chance of doing better.
Also this 'farang' friendly firm was so incompentent they could not even translate a document correctly, so much so that I had trouble reading it and I can usually decipher the best 'tinglish' sms's !!!!
I agree with this. nawty. Indeed, there are many cases where the one who was right also won, being farang or not. It is called justice, isn't it? And it often works in Thailand. We see it not working quite often, but that should not make us believing that justice never works. There are good and fair judges out there, also in Thailand, and there are others, also in Thailand. Good and bad is everywhere.Nawty wrote:Not all judges take the side of Thai, in fact it has been my experience to hear of cases which have simply followed the law and whichever side is correct wins. many foreigners have won in thai courts, both big and small cases.
Just this week I could (indirectly) witness a farang winning, in a case where a Thai family, the family of his bargirl wife, was taking their kid hostage and let him, the father, see it only after he pays ten thousands of baht, each and every time, and even then just for ten minutes. And threatening to kill him if he'd ever show up in their village, where they keep the kid. Well, what do you expect if you marry a bargirl ... and yes, she's back working in the bar, she probably never really stopped, despite him paying her a high enough monthly allowance, and yes, she is refusing the divorce. Why should she end the cash flow which she and her family enjoys so much?
Fortunately this guy had a good Thai lawyer, who not only calmed him down enough not to make things worse with a jai rohn attitude, but to go to court. They've been in front of the judge the day before yesterday, and the lawyer presented the case to the judge, calm and clear. Facts and laws. And won, yesterday they went to the amphoe and he got divorced, and court issued a clear and enforcable schedule for kid to be with his father, without extra payment.
You can't imagine how happy that guy was! (Dunno if he's out to marry a bargirl again though).
All that looked to me like a guy falling (by his own mistake) into the hands of barbarians sucking his blood, but then taken out of there by a working justice system, judges and lawyers.
You forgot one important point: Having justice on your sideNawty wrote:The key is preparation and knowledge.
With enough preparation and knowledge you can often cheat justice, unfortunately. But it would make me feel too bad if I'd win a case because of better knowledge of a hidden clause, which the other side might have overlooked, but without having justice on my side.
But then again, some people have a strange conception of right and wrong
Last edited by Attila on Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
jazzman wrote:Some people are quick to complain about products and/or services they have had here in Thailand. It comes partly from the paranoia of expecting to be ripped off - which of course is no unwise caution to take.
However, there are many instances that , if the full facts were known and examined very carefully, often the farang was in the wrong in the very first place...
yes, jazzman, so true. I had a phonecall from an Italian friend the other week and he complained and complained that the Thais cannot get anything done, now they work on his xyz license modification and renewal for 7 month and it is still not done, and now they want him to go to the police station because there was another document missing. "So bad! Stupid! Incompetent! Ripping me off!" When he went on to continue about some friends of him telling him how much the Thais would enjoy to suck out their lifeblood (their money) I brutally interrupted him (was not easy, after all he's Italian ) and asked him to get them to call me, may be I could find out what's happening. And yes, indeed, they had only tried to save his time and money, and assuming that they would most certainly not manage to make him understand which (very last) paper the authorities are demanding now before issuing the license, and even if they'd manage to explain him, then he would most certainly not have it anymore.
So they prepared (together with the authority's officer) a shortcut, declare the doc as lost and the authorities would be happy and the license would be handed over.
Despite having been asked to bring his passport, my Italian friend was so enraged about this apparent new "f*ck *p" that he forgot it. But the Thais in question managed to convince the police to issue that lost document statement anyway and all clear and done.
My friend was apologizing and admitting to be impressed by the Thais, how much proactivity and cleverness they have shown just to make his life easier.
This new attitude lasted 35 minutes, when they presented their invoice for their services, which really was not high, he switched right back to the "they're ripping me off" song
There is a reason why translations cost money.
Doesn't surprise me. Most farangs here have a cheap charly attitude when it comes to translations, they do not want to pay the extra costs of having documents translated by a translation service, especially not when there are many pages to translate. So they try to translate it in house, using regular salary staff, and that can work for English to Thai, but for Thai to English, in my experience, it rarely works. There is a reason why translations cost money.Nawty wrote:they could not even translate a document correctly, so much so that I had trouble reading it and I can usually decipher the best 'tinglish' sms's !!!
You get what you pay for.Funny thing now is that I found out yesterday all the evidence from the court and the judgement for my case.
To be fank, my lawers were one of 2 things, simply no other option here.
1. The most stupid and inconpemtent bunch around.
or
2. Corrupt and totaly untrustworthy.
Either way, the choice is there's which they prefer to be called.
I have the evidance today which proves how inept they are.
To be fank, my lawers were one of 2 things, simply no other option here.
1. The most stupid and inconpemtent bunch around.
or
2. Corrupt and totaly untrustworthy.
Either way, the choice is there's which they prefer to be called.
I have the evidance today which proves how inept they are.
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johnleepbs
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:04 pm
Tis true what you say.Nawty wrote:Funny thing now is that I found out yesterday all the evidence from the court and the judgement for my case.
To be fank, my lawers were one of 2 things, simply no other option here.
1. The most stupid and inconpemtent bunch around.
or
2. Corrupt and totaly untrustworthy.
Either way, the choice is there's which they prefer to be called.
I have the evidance today which proves how inept they are.
I have never taken anybody to court before in my life. And now twice in Thailand. The courts are fair if the law is on your side. Both times I won and the second time was against a lawyer. His sheer incompetance was his undoing.
The dressing down the judge gave him in front of his local court was a sight to behold. Worth more than money!
Probably all boils down to the translation thing as Atilla mentions. The criterion is to know what papers are necessary for the actual court case, or whether a cheap translation is all that is needed for the plaintif's information.
If he has a Thai wife who can speak reasonable English - which is probably the case in the majority of marriages where the farang can't speak Thai - then there is an advantage and a lesson to be learned.
Beware nevertheless of the farang friends and bar-stool lawyers who gad about with a reasonable knowledge of Thai and plenty of 'advice'.
If ever in doubt, get a professional translator, it's a small price to pay to win a case which may be worth a couple of million baht.
If he has a Thai wife who can speak reasonable English - which is probably the case in the majority of marriages where the farang can't speak Thai - then there is an advantage and a lesson to be learned.
Beware nevertheless of the farang friends and bar-stool lawyers who gad about with a reasonable knowledge of Thai and plenty of 'advice'.
If ever in doubt, get a professional translator, it's a small price to pay to win a case which may be worth a couple of million baht.
I agree, thats why we had someone with me that is fluent in Thai and a farang at evey meeting.
Then the firm should not be touting itself as a farang friendly firm is they have no idea.
I agree that any firm can only act upon information that is given. Funny thing is that when 3 inches of evidence is given, but only 3mm of paperwork if that is presented to the court and then 3 perfect witnesses are provided, yet they were not called, funny also how my laywers provided wrong information to me the day PRIOR to the court case that it was not the 'actual' court case.
The more I think about this, the more this company is totally inept or corrupt or both in my and everyone elses eyes dealing with it.
Simple thing is, I do not want to see anyone else lose a case because of total incompetence.
Then the firm should not be touting itself as a farang friendly firm is they have no idea.
I agree that any firm can only act upon information that is given. Funny thing is that when 3 inches of evidence is given, but only 3mm of paperwork if that is presented to the court and then 3 perfect witnesses are provided, yet they were not called, funny also how my laywers provided wrong information to me the day PRIOR to the court case that it was not the 'actual' court case.
The more I think about this, the more this company is totally inept or corrupt or both in my and everyone elses eyes dealing with it.
Simple thing is, I do not want to see anyone else lose a case because of total incompetence.
Maybe that was the problem: too many cooks spoil the broth.
One man's meat is another man's poison - if several people on this board recommend a company, that company must be doing an ok job. One client's misadventure or dissatisfaction may not necessarily be blatant evidence of constant incompetence. Anyone who has been in business will know that it is not possible to please every client - some major airlines have suffered catastrophic disasters due to pilot error, but they are still flying and transporting millions of satisfied customers.
errare humanum est.
One man's meat is another man's poison - if several people on this board recommend a company, that company must be doing an ok job. One client's misadventure or dissatisfaction may not necessarily be blatant evidence of constant incompetence. Anyone who has been in business will know that it is not possible to please every client - some major airlines have suffered catastrophic disasters due to pilot error, but they are still flying and transporting millions of satisfied customers.
errare humanum est.
Yes but catastrophic incompetance by one pilot does and should and will make every future passenger think twice about using them.
This is what I am doing, letting people know to choose elsewhere if they are informed of accurate incompetence.
Problem is that with airlines, over time new pricings attract new customers who have no idea about a fatal crash a year or 3 prior, so they ignorantly go forth and fly.
I am letting others know not to risk losing their case by using this firm. There are many other firms out there to use and at the very least, you will not do any worse.
Funny, on one hand you say not enough information, then on the next its too many people supplying too much information.
Does not fly with me. You obviously like this firm for whatever reason, I know of a couple of farang connected to this firm, perhaps you are one ???
Regardless, a bit of accurate constructive criticism is good for anyone, maybe they will lift their game and become what they want and try to be. But that goal is a long way in the future unfortunately.
it is not possible to please every customer every time, I agree. However it is possible to use the information given to you rather than just discard it. This was done either by stupitidy, or corruption, either way its incompetent. You seem to be ignoring this black and white fact.....wonder why ?
This is what I am doing, letting people know to choose elsewhere if they are informed of accurate incompetence.
Problem is that with airlines, over time new pricings attract new customers who have no idea about a fatal crash a year or 3 prior, so they ignorantly go forth and fly.
I am letting others know not to risk losing their case by using this firm. There are many other firms out there to use and at the very least, you will not do any worse.
Funny, on one hand you say not enough information, then on the next its too many people supplying too much information.
Does not fly with me. You obviously like this firm for whatever reason, I know of a couple of farang connected to this firm, perhaps you are one ???
Regardless, a bit of accurate constructive criticism is good for anyone, maybe they will lift their game and become what they want and try to be. But that goal is a long way in the future unfortunately.
it is not possible to please every customer every time, I agree. However it is possible to use the information given to you rather than just discard it. This was done either by stupitidy, or corruption, either way its incompetent. You seem to be ignoring this black and white fact.....wonder why ?