Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

[jazzman]

Can anyone confirm if a Usufruct is limited to any particular types of title? Being that it was originally designed to allow for the long term use of land for agriculture, I wouldn't expect any problems with the lesser titles, but I'd be interested to hear the experiences of others.

Personally, I wouldn't consider wanting to take the risk of getting a usufruct for, or raising a permanent building on, any land that is not Chanote land. So it would appear that the question is rather more academic than practical..

[jazzman]

Just reading back through this thread, I realised I must have missed this.

If a married couple has a combined income of B40,000 per month they can apply for a one year visa. We have a business together and to obtaining the WP is easy but for the one year business visa there are all sorts of hurdles that we were struggling to overcome. I must also draw a salary of 65K, which means a higher tax bracket.

The hurdles you have had obtaining a visa seem a bit odd.
On 2 June 2008, I got a Non-Imm visa B, 12-month, multiple entry, at the Thai consulate in Birmingham, UK, in 10 minutes while I waited. Price GBP 95.00. Except for an e-mail invitation from a Thai based company to attend a series of meetings, no other documentation was required. The same practice is standard at the Thai consulate in in Marseille, France. Also in Melbourne, Australia, where however, the application is made on one day, and the visa is collected the next day.

There are other discussion boards about obtaining visas for Thailand, but although they may be interesting reading due to their 'chat' nature, the information tends to be subjective, confusing and contradictory.

By contrast, in my experience, getting a WP for your own business is exceptionally omplex and costly, requires mountains of paperwork, a minimum number of declared Thai employees, and a minimum investment or start-up capital. No problem of course for someone setting up a large organisation, but almost out of the question for an SME.

Again, there are lawyers who will charge you from 20,000 baht - those who advertise doing it for 5,000 baht are only quoting the actual Thai documentation fee. There is also a misconception that every business in Thailand needs to be a Limited Company, and requires a lawyer to set it up.

[Attila]

Just reading back through this thread, I realised I must have missed this.

If a married couple has a combined income of B40,000 per month they can apply for a one year visa. We have a business together and to obtaining the WP is easy but for the one year business visa there are all sorts of hurdles that we were struggling to overcome. I must also draw a salary of 65K, which means a higher tax bracket.

The hurdles you have had obtaining a visa seem a bit odd.
On 2 June 2008, I got a Non-Imm visa B, 12-month, multiple entry, at the Thai consulate in Birmingham, UK, in 10 minutes while I waited. Price GBP 95.00. Except for an e-mail invitation from a Thai based company to attend a series of meetings, no other documentation was required. The same practice is standard at the Thai consulate in in Marseille, France. Also in Melbourne, Australia, where however, the application is made on one day, and the visa is collected the next day.

Jazzman, you are talking about obtaining a one year visa at a Thai embassy in your home country, while the quote of Smithson above describes the legal situation and the current requirement for a one year extension of stay granted by immigration in Thailand.

[ThailandTiger]

Can anyone confirm if a Usufruct is limited to any particular types of title? Being that it was originally designed to allow for the long term use of land for agriculture, I wouldn't expect any problems with the lesser titles, but I'd be interested to hear the experiences of others.

Personally, I wouldn't consider wanting to take the risk of getting a usufruct for, or raising a permanent building on, any land that is not Chanote land. So it would appear that the question is rather more academic than practical..

Hey Jazzman; two points come to mind;
1. Restricting yourself to Chanote titled land will also restrict you geographically as many areas simply do not have Chanote titled land.
2. Yes Chanote titled land is a safer bet, but you're also betting more. would you rather bet 1million Baht with a 20% chance of loss, or bet 200,000 Baht with a 30% chance of loss? You also have to consider opportunity cost...the money you save on accepting a lesser title can be sitting in the bank where it's safer and earning you a return to offset the risk of investing in land in Thailand.

I must confess to originally only being interested in Chanote titled land, but have come to think along the lines of "the best way to minimise what you can lose is to minimise what you invest here".

Whilst it's only anecdotal evidence, I'd suggest that the vast majority of those who have lost out when investing here lost out because of issues concerning securing thier interest or trusting the wrong people, not because of the title being less than Chanote. If someone (girlfriend, business partner, or whomever) is going to cheat you, then they're going to cheat you regardless of the type of title.

Thus back to my original question I guess; can a Usufruct protect someone wanting to secure their interest regardless of the type of title?

[Nawty]

It seems here in the local land office they are running a business on the side with the local lawyers.

If you inquire with the land officers here in Banchang they will tell you they do not do usufructs here and only do a lease. When we made the land transfer from the seller to my wife last week and she asked the officer about making a lease on the land the officer told her she needs to talk to Khun xxx about the lease contract. Khun xxx is the lawyer we spoke with originally about usufruct and leases. So it is becoming apparent that the land officer and the lawyer have a special "arrangement" about lease contracts. The lawyer quoted us 20k baht to help us get a lease at the local land office. For now we will wait and sort this out later.

Scheisters.

You have to watch these plicks every minute don't you. Cannot relax and just do things the easy wya....everything drawn out, complicated and shonky.

[thaifly]

its a gidday to all its the thaifly from mae rim..from my own experience channote tilted deeds..is the only way to go..for a multitude of reasons or ready discussed at length on C.T.H. GILT EDGE SO TO SPEAK.....lesser tiltles to my way of thinking are TOILET PAPER.. i suggest to any one who wished to go down this path WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD..engage a very good lawyer to advise the pros and cons...of such tiltles.. which i am sure will give you a different perspective of buying these toilet paper titles...all in all ... apart from CHANNOTE TITLED DEEDS..the rest are A NO GO ZONE for me ... and its a ...LIKE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT gidday to all.. ITS THE THAI FLY FROM MAE RIM

[ThailandTiger]

its a gidday to all its the thaifly from mae rim..from my own experience channote tilted deeds..is the only way to go..for a multitude of reasons or ready discussed at length on C.T.H. GILT EDGE SO TO SPEAK.....lesser tiltles to my way of thinking are TOILET PAPER.. i suggest to any one who wished to go down this path WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD..engage a very good lawyer to advise the pros and cons...of such tiltles.. which i am sure will give you a different perspective of buying these toilet paper titles...all in all ... apart from CHANNOTE TITLED DEEDS..the rest are A NO GO ZONE for me ... and its a ...LIKE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT gidday to all.. ITS THE THAI FLY FROM MAE RIM

I guess it's horses for courses when it comes to title deeds. If having the Chanote helps you sleep at night then it might well be money well spent.

As for risk...I've lost far more money on blue chip property investments in 1st world countries over the last year than I would have had I bitten the bullet earlier and bought the land I'd been umming and arhhing about because I was worried about the risk of a lesser title. I suspect I'm not the only person re-evaluating risk given the events of this year.

[Beon]

Just wanted to add my experience here.

My title deed is Nor Sor Saam. I have a usufruct AND an additional Rights of Superficies contract. A usufruct mainly covers the land itself and the enjoyment of it, but it is usually enough to also cover any structures/plantations you build on your land. In my case I wanted to be anal and 100% sure so I got the superficies contract too which is specifically about the buildings. Observe that the land office will only check your contracts for obvious flaws, thats all. That doesnt indicate whether they are good or bad contracts. If you would win a court procedure or not with an obnoxious land owner is a different matter. Thats why some lawyers suggest that you find a trustable thai friend who buys the land and then usufructs it to you. Then problem is that would be a clear case of "use of nominee", i.e. illegal. You need to have some luck with who is the original owner and usufruct directly from him.

Another problem is that the land will revert back to the owner when you die. I.e. you are worth more dead than alive so someone might want to kill you. This can be countered by putting more than one person's name on the contract (your children, etc).

You dont need a lawyer for usufruct. We provided the usufruct contract, but my land office (Chiang Dao) used a template from the office anyway. My lawyer also drew the superficies contract and supervised the whole registration session (pretty handy since it takes a long time and you dont want any of the steps to go wrong). His fee was 9000 B, peanuts in this circumstance.

You dont need a working permit or special visa for this; a normal tourist visa is enough.

Also, when you get a building permit it should be in YOUR NAME, not your thai friend or spouse. That will be further evidence that the final building belongs to you.

[Nawty]

Anyone know how old kids have to be to sign documents themselves ?

ie, if land in their name, what age can they sign to seel it and not have to go to court for permission anymore ?

Is it the same for companies, can kids be directors ?

[Beon]

Anyone know how old kids have to be to sign documents themselves ?

ie, if land in their name, what age can they sign to seel it and not have to go to court for permission anymore ?

Is it the same for companies, can kids be directors ?

What Ive heard is that the kids on a usufruct can be any age, but of course not "future kids"/unborn kids.

[Attila]

... We provided the usufruct contract, but my land office (Chiang Dao) used a template from the office anyway. My lawyer also drew the superficies contract and supervised the whole registration session (pretty handy since it takes a long time and you dont want any of the steps to go wrong). His fee was 9000 B, peanuts in this circumstance.

In the last 9 months I saw the land office in Pattaya refusing to register a usufruct twice. No reason given, they just refused. Mortgage or leasing was accepted though.

Also, when you get a building permit it should be in YOUR NAME, not your thai friend or spouse. That will be further evidence that the final building belongs to you.

Very important, that is the direct way to get the blue house book with your name it it, as owner (not as living there, of course).

[geordie]

bump

[Nawty]

where ?

[geordie]

dug up so tanglefinger would not have to look too hard

[jesimps]

Tried recently (via my lawyer a DMA Consultants) to get a usufruct at the Banglamung Land Office. This was flatly refused, they're only prepared to issue leases. When I queried this with my lawyer, she said that although usufructs are legal here, it's up to the boss at the land office. I suspect it's because it's more lucrative to issue leases, 10,000 THB for the lawyer and 25,000 THB for the land office, which was the price I was quoted for the lease. I'd be interested to know if anyone has succeeded in getting a usufruct or similar from Banglamung in the last few months. I really begrudge paying a fortune to lease land which I've already just bought, even if it is in the wife's name.