Leasing Land - How's it done?

[jazzman]

A usufruct does not need the services of a lawyer at all. The basic fee at the land office is 75 baht. Some land offices may charge a small addidtional tax on the value of the land and for that, they will accept your word on how much you say it is worth.

Been there, done that.

Perhaps some more shopping around would be a good idea, and put the 16,000 baht to better use, such as maybe an architect.

[thomas.fontaine]

That's interesting. I 've never thought I could do it myself. My understanding was that an 'agreement' had to be put in place between the land owner and the usufruct(ier), and of course in thai language, before you could register the deal on the Chanotte.

Do you mean that you just need to knock the door of your local land office and ask that your name is added to the Chanotte?

I promise I would make good use of this 16,000 bahts if not spent on the usufruct.

[Attila]

That's interesting. I 've never thought I could do it myself. My understanding was that an 'agreement' had to be put in place between the land owner and the usufruct(ier), and of course in thai language, before you could register the deal on the Chanotte.

Do you mean that you just need to knock the door of your local land office and ask that your name is added to the Chanotte?

Some land offices ask for a written agreement, others do not. I'm pretty sure they do in Jazzman's part of Thailand, but then again, such an agreement was probably not a problem for him.

Of course, if you ask a lawyer to do it, he will charge for it, he needs to get his time, effort and knowhow paid, nothing wrong with that. I have seen such usufruct contracts, it is really nothing special, but of course, as you assumed, it is in Thai. So if you can't write it yourself then shop around, as Jazzman said, you can certainly get it for less than 16000.

[thomas.fontaine]

Actually, the 16000 bahts cover the services from the Lawyers (which of course have to be remunerated, no problem with that) and the fees and tax from the local authority.

I don't know what is the amount for the tax that Jazzman mentioned, but I would suspect that the remuneration for the lawyer is a small portion of the 16k.

In my case, it will certainly be cheaper to pay a lawyer to do everything than to buy a return flight to thailand to do all that by myself.

[Attila]

Actually, the 16000 bahts cover the services from the Lawyers (which of course have to be remunerated, no problem with that) and the fees and tax from the local authority.

I don't know what is the amount for the tax that Jazzman mentioned, but I would suspect that the remuneration for the lawyer is a small portion of the 16k.

In my case, it will certainly be cheaper to pay a lawyer to do everything than to buy a return flight to thailand to do all that by myself.

Do you talk about an empty plot of land or is there a building already? There is a huge difference in the fees for empty land and for land with buildings. For empty land the fee can be, as Jazzman said above, as low as 75 baht

[jazzman]

It will certainly cost a lawyer's fee to act as your proxy if he has to do it all for you if you can't go to the land office and sign the usufruct yourself. he will have to travel to the land office and do all the waiting around. The land office procedure cannot be done by post. The process in the land office can take anything from 1 to 3 hours if you have ALL the paperwork they require. It is done while you wait and the landowner must go with you - or your lawyer or other representative who has legal power of attorney to act on your behalf. Just hope they don't screw it up for you in your absence

Some land offices equire a usufruct agreement signed by both parties, but that does not need a lawyer either. Some lawyers however may be able to help out for a small fee by providing you with a ready-made contract of this type. Sometimes in some remote provinces, this may be the first time the clerk has been asked to do a usufruct, and you may need him to talk on the phone to your lawyer who will tell the clerk what to do, and the clerk will then realise that they do in fact have, in a lost, dusty corner of the office, the pre printed usufruct forms. there are about 20 pages to be filled in, signed and stamped and that's one of the reasons why it takes a long time. In a very friendly office, the clerk may even work through his lunch break to do this for you.

If there is already a building on the land you will be charged a tax of 1.5 percent of the value of the building. They will take your word on that value. or you can of course keep quiet about the building if it is not already on the chanote.[/i]

[thomas.fontaine]

Where can I find a draft Usufruct agreement other than through a Lawyer? Could these draft be found in both thai and english?

[thomas.fontaine]

I talked to my wife about this usufruct thing tonight. She doesn't have any problem with that but is worried that she might be in trouble when going to the land office with me.

She bought the land 2 years ago. We are married in France but not in Thailand and she didn't mention her marital situation to the thai authority when filling the paperwork as she believed that it could have made things more complicated.

So...Is there any thing to worry about here? And, if YES, what is the concern?

[dozer]

There is a paper that needs to get signed by the foreigner married to a Thai woman, which normally gets triggered if the woman last name has been changed during marriage to a non-thai name. The paper is pretty simple as I understand it, it is a document which states that the foreigner has no interest in the land and that the funds to purchase the land came from the Thai woman. This is how it is that a Thai woman married to a foreigner (who cannot own land) is allowed to purchase land (there was a time in the past when Thai women married to foreigners were prohibited from purchasing land!).

There isn't any reason to worry about the this, theoretically they could request this paper at this date (but it is very unlikely), and it wouldn't impact the validity of the Usufruct anyway.

[Traveler]

I talked to my wife about this usufruct thing tonight. She doesn't have any problem with that but is worried that she might be in trouble when going to the land office with me.

She bought the land 2 years ago. We are married in France but not in Thailand and she didn't mention her marital situation to the thai authority when filling the paperwork as she believed that it could have made things more complicated.

So...Is there any thing to worry about here? And, if YES, what is the concern?

Dozer's info is correct.

If a Thai is married to an alien (sorry, but that's how they call us in laws) a certain document must be provided in which the foreign husband/wife declares, that the land will solely be the property of the Thai national and that the funds to purchase the land only originate from the Thai.

This document is available at any embassy and land office. They may refuse to issue this document if the plot is either big or for business, but if the plot isn't big (1-2 rai) and only for private housing they don't mind.

I already did it several times, no prob at all. You need to provide the following additional documents : Passports/ID of both, Thai marriage certificate or translated certified foreign marriage certificate, copy of chanote or just the number of it. That's it.

I will scan it in and add it as a PDF until this weekend. It's Thai/English, so just print it out and use it.

[thomas.fontaine]

Is there any retroactivity on that? In other word, do we need to sign this paper at the local office for a land already bought by my wife while we were already married?

[jazzman]

Where can I find a draft Usufruct agreement other than through a Lawyer? Could these draft be found in both thai and english?

Short answers:

1. Nowhere, unless someone who has already paid for one is prepared to give it to you for free.
However as it's so cheap, what's the problem?

2. Same answer.

[jazzman]

I talked to my wife about this usufruct thing tonight. She doesn't have any problem with that but is worried that she might be in trouble when going to the land office with me.

She bought the land 2 years ago. We are married in France but not in Thailand and she didn't mention her marital situation to the thai authority when filling the paperwork as she believed that it could have made things more complicated.

So...Is there any thing to worry about here? And, if YES, what is the concern?

If your marriage has not been declared to the Thai authorities, the answer is quite obvious:
The procedure for the usufruct will be as straightforward and uncomplicated as possible.

However, she will have to go to the land office together, with the lawyer or whoever else you pay vast sums to do this simple operation for you - and if she is also in KL then you are in for a lot more fees than the cost of flying to Khon Kaen and getting the thing done yourselves.

The equasion is simple as has been stated in earlier postings, and is a matter of:

• construction budget
  personal construction knowledge
  land acquisition budget
  legal requirements
  professional fees
  quality
  speed
  satisfaction
  peace of mind
  personal availability and to oversee any or all of the above
  willingness to pay professionals a reasonable fee for taking care of any of the above

in whichever order your own priorities happen to be

[thomas.fontaine]

No comment.

By the way, I've already managed to get my draft Usufruct agreement

[Traveler]

There is a paper that needs to get signed by the foreigner married to a Thai woman, which normally gets triggered if the woman last name has been changed during marriage to a non-thai name. The paper is pretty simple as I understand it, it is a document which states that the foreigner has no interest in the land and that the funds to purchase the land came from the Thai woman. This is how it is that a Thai woman married to a foreigner (who cannot own land) is allowed to purchase land (there was a time in the past when Thai women married to foreigners were prohibited from purchasing land!).

There isn't any reason to worry about the this, theoretically they could request this paper at this date (but it is very unlikely), and it wouldn't impact the validity of the Usufruct anyway.

Thomas,

there is really nothing to be worried about.

The land that she already owns is not affected in any ways if being married to a foreigner. She can also still inherit land without limitations.
Only newly bought land needs an official and certified declaration of yours - if not signed in person at the land office - that all the funds and monies used to buy the land do solely originate from your wife and that you do not and will not claim any rights on that land.

Registration of a usufruct is more or less only a legal matter that doesn't affect the ownership. Therefore the land office doesn't really have an interest in it, only notifies and documents it.

I am not 100% sure about your wife's legal status if your marriage isn't registered in Thailand, but I assume it will be taken into account by the Thai authorities if they would know. Nevertheless they may still reject some rights from you - like certain visa - if you do not register your marriage in LOS.

So in short, no need to worry about any probs with the land she already owns. In the worst case, the land office may request the beforementioned declaration for the land bought 2yrs ago - in case you have already been married at that time. I personally doubt that, but you never know - especially in LOS.