sewers

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sewers

Postby mistifarang » Sat May 13, 2006 6:21 pm

I read something about smells and sewers / sewers and smells. In Asia one get used to it and has to live with the sometimes terrible sewer-smells outside the house, but having them inside for me is unacceptable. :x

I noticed that although wash hand basins have been equipped with a siphon, the small waste on the bathroom floors are without and I am suspicious the bathtub has one! :?
I have seen a system with a “siphoned device” near to the septic tank in the garden which should stop bad odors entering the sewer system for bathtub, wash hand basin and floor-outlet. Fine when it works, but when the water level in the “stop odor manhole” is too low it doesn’t work anymore! I should prefer the simple siphons for all sanitary devices.
I read somewhere that the extended venting sewer pipes outside the houses are missing here, but I have never seen them outside the UK. They are used in Europe sometimes and only to prevent an under pressure in long vertical fall pipes with lots of connections. When you have a sewer system with several bathrooms connected and there is an augmented flow caused by several devices flushing at the same time or wrong dimensions of the tubing the risk exist that a vacuum will be created causing the suction of the water staying in the installed siphons of was hand basins and tubs. Not so much to get rid of bad odors. For that the siphons are more than sufficient when a house is frequently in use. The only disadvantage of a siphon is that it can get empty by a bad installation of the system or by drying out.

So, when you are suffering of bad sewer smells inside your house, investigate where the small man hole in the garden is and inspect it. I am almost sure that there is a lack of water in it (damaged or not in use enough) or they simply forgot to make one! :wink:

The attached photo's are giving a good idea: at photo 1 you see, that the "odor lock" is not working. On your right hand you see the connection to the septic tank. The water level on the left hand side should be at the level of the separation in the middle of the man hole. If not the smell is coming out the right hand septic tank connection into the left hand wash hand basin outlet.

Photo 2 shows that although water is running out of the wash hand basin outlet (left) the left water level does not rise as it should do to lock the smell from the right hand side. You can also see, that the water from the left hand compartment "leaks" at the sides into the right hand compartment which should only overrun the middle "wall" when it reaches the level of that separation! Only than the device is creating an odor lock!
Attachments
1.jpg
2.jpg
My meanings are just ideas, suggestions and opinions or, if you wish, critics (but always positively meant) to start a discussion or to open minds, to ventilate another view of an outsider.
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Postby Kondee » Sat May 13, 2006 11:02 pm

thanx again for this good story. :wink:
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Postby John » Sun May 14, 2006 5:25 am

Septic tanks are not designed to be odour locks. If a septic tank and related plumbing are installed correctly there will be no smells from pipes or tanks.

Septic tanks trap and bio degrade solid waste then run the remaining liquid off to a main drain or leach field. If working correctly bugs consume solid waste at an alarming rate. Trouble with Thailand is they are rarely installed well and not much thought is given to the type of waste that can reduce bio action (kitchen waste).

I have absolutely no time for 80% of Thai plumbers. Lack of knowledge and shoddy workmanship makes it difficult for them to keep liquids and smelly gases inside pipes.
The mentality of Thai plumbers (and most trades for that matter) goes something like this – It costs 8000 Baht for a plastic septic tank and fittings to connect everything correctly but only 6000 Baht if you do it the traditional Thai way.

Did you know that water flows uphill in Thailand? It’s true, ask any Thai plumber.
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Postby PoMoat » Sun May 14, 2006 6:12 am

"water flows uphill in Thailand"
:lol: :lol: :lol:
If thats what the Thai plumbers will tell me, I can't wait to hear what the electricians say...
:lol:
PoMoat
Tom Tom where you go lad nai?
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Postby mistifarang » Sun May 14, 2006 10:04 am

John wrote: Septic tanks are not designed to be odour locks. If a septic tank and related plumbing are installed correctly there will be no smells from pipes or tanks.
Trouble with Thailand is they are rarely installed well and not much thought is given to the type of waste that can reduce bio action (kitchen waste).
I have absolutely no time for 80% of Thai plumbers. Lack of knowledge and shoddy workmanship makes it difficult for them to keep liquids and smelly gases inside pipes.



.


That's excactly what I have said and tried to explain. The devices I showed is not a sceptic tank but the odor trap
My meanings are just ideas, suggestions and opinions or, if you wish, critics (but always positively meant) to start a discussion or to open minds, to ventilate another view of an outsider.
mistifarang
 
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Location: Bangkok

Postby John » Sun May 14, 2006 10:59 am

mistifarang wrote:
John wrote: Septic tanks are not designed to be odour locks. If a septic tank and related plumbing are installed correctly there will be no smells from pipes or tanks.
Trouble with Thailand is they are rarely installed well and not much thought is given to the type of waste that can reduce bio action (kitchen waste).
I have absolutely no time for 80% of Thai plumbers. Lack of knowledge and shoddy workmanship makes it difficult for them to keep liquids and smelly gases inside pipes.



.


That's excactly what I have said and tried to explain. The devices I showed is not a sceptic tank but the odor trap




I dont think for one minute that was put there to trap odor but having said that nothing would surprise me. Looks more like a third world turd trap to me.

Trapping odors downstream is a bit dumb, what about the stink left in the pipe before the trap. You wouldnt want to rely on that method after I have dumped in your crapper.

.
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Postby mistifarang » Sun May 14, 2006 1:02 pm

John wrote:
mistifarang wrote:
John wrote: Septic tanks are not designed to be odour locks. If a septic tank and related plumbing are installed correctly there will be no smells from pipes or tanks.
Trouble with Thailand is they are rarely installed well and not much thought is given to the type of waste that can reduce bio action (kitchen waste).
I have absolutely no time for 80% of Thai plumbers. Lack of knowledge and shoddy workmanship makes it difficult for them to keep liquids and smelly gases inside pipes.



.


That's excactly what I have said and tried to explain. The devices I showed is not a sceptic tank but the odor trap




I dont think for one minute that was put there to trap odor but having said that nothing would surprise me. Looks more like a third world turd trap to me.

Trapping odors downstream is a bit dumb, what about the stink left in the pipe before the trap. You wouldnt want to rely on that method after I have dumped in your crapper.

.


Odors are allways trapped downstreams (siphon of your sink for example) and this put is working exactly the same and satisfying WHEN it has been properly constructed because in principle the waste water at the left hand side blocks the odors from the right hand side!
My meanings are just ideas, suggestions and opinions or, if you wish, critics (but always positively meant) to start a discussion or to open minds, to ventilate another view of an outsider.
mistifarang
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:11 pm
Location: Bangkok

Postby John » Sun May 14, 2006 8:55 pm

mistifarang wrote:
John wrote:
mistifarang wrote:
John wrote: Septic tanks are not designed to be odour locks. If a septic tank and related plumbing are installed correctly there will be no smells from pipes or tanks.
Trouble with Thailand is they are rarely installed well and not much thought is given to the type of waste that can reduce bio action (kitchen waste).
I have absolutely no time for 80% of Thai plumbers. Lack of knowledge and shoddy workmanship makes it difficult for them to keep liquids and smelly gases inside pipes.



.


That's excactly what I have said and tried to explain. The devices I showed is not a sceptic tank but the odor trap




I dont think for one minute that was put there to trap odor but having said that nothing would surprise me. Looks more like a third world turd trap to me.

Trapping odors downstream is a bit dumb, what about the stink left in the pipe before the trap. You wouldnt want to rely on that method after I have dumped in your crapper.

.


Odors are allways trapped downstreams (siphon of your sink for example) and this put is working exactly the same and satisfying WHEN it has been properly constructed because in principle the waste water at the left hand side blocks the odors from the right hand side!





By downstream I mean well beyond the sink or shower, but never mind I dont want to to enter into a hair splitting contest.

An odour trap wherever it’s placed allows solid waste to pass freely past the trap reservoir. The arrangement you have shown will do little more than allow solids to settle in the left side compartment.
Separators, vacuum breaks and inspection chambers are what you find in main service drains.


.
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sewer smells

Postby cruzing » Mon May 15, 2006 9:34 am

P-traps. they don't tend to use them here. You need p-traps and proper venting through your roof to the outside. Look at all the houses in the states, if you look closely (they are not conspicuos) you will see the vents for toilets and sinks.

The way they do the plumbing here, and then adding a drain in the bathroom floor, you can't help but have nauseating smells in the bathrooms.

Our floors in our house are all one level here and showers separate...no floor drains, no stink.

Even though we still have not yet installed the regular p-traps on our showers (have those drains with the water resevoir---supposed to keep smell out) we hardly ever have any smell because everything is vented and sinks have traps.

Another reason there is stink in the bathrooms is that they do not use wax rings when installing the toilets, even though a lot of the instructions for installing the toilet calls for them. (especially U.S. brand toilets such as Kohler) You can not buy wax rings here. The only toilet that comes with wax rings----and they are not really large enough----is Cotto......at least the toilets that are around 6000 + baht. We ordered wax rings from Home Depot in the states and had someone bring them over. six rings super cheap.

Also, need to leech your septic tank properly. We did ours a little different than they do in the states because of the ground here. Also have all the water from kitchen sinks, bathroom sinks and showers going to 2 greywater tanks (old type concrete thai sewers) that leeches out.

Cruzing
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Re: sewer smells

Postby John » Mon May 15, 2006 4:31 pm

cruzing wrote:
Another reason there is stink in the bathrooms is that they do not use wax rings when installing the toilets, even though a lot of the instructions for installing the toilet calls for them. (especially U.S. brand toilets such as Kohler) You can not buy wax rings here. The only toilet that comes with wax rings----and they are not really large enough----is Cotto......at least the toilets that are around 6000 + baht. We ordered wax rings from Home Depot in the states and had someone bring them over. six rings super cheap.
Cruzing



That’s a good point, toilet coupling is definitely something you should discuss with your Thai plumber.

Sealing rings are available in TH but not always easy to find. Tengwu (Chinese wax seal maker) are available along with a few other makes I believe.





.
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Re: sewer smells

Postby cruzing » Tue May 16, 2006 9:45 am

John wrote:
cruzing wrote:
Another reason there is stink in the bathrooms is that they do not use wax rings when installing the toilets, even though a lot of the instructions for installing the toilet calls for them. (especially U.S. brand toilets such as Kohler) You can not buy wax rings here. The only toilet that comes with wax rings----and they are not really large enough----is Cotto......at least the toilets that are around 6000 + baht. We ordered wax rings from Home Depot in the states and had someone bring them over. six rings super cheap.
Cruzing



That’s a good point, toilet coupling is definitely something you should discuss with your Thai plumber.

Sealing rings are available in TH but not always easy to find. Tengwu (Chinese wax seal maker) are available along with a few other makes I believe.

.


Please tell me where to buy in Thailand if they are available. I have several friends getting ready to build houses. We searched high and low for wax rings when building and never did find a source.

thanks,
cruzing
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Re: sewer smells

Postby John » Tue May 16, 2006 10:56 am

cruzing wrote:
John wrote:
cruzing wrote:
Another reason there is stink in the bathrooms is that they do not use wax rings when installing the toilets, even though a lot of the instructions for installing the toilet calls for them. (especially U.S. brand toilets such as Kohler) You can not buy wax rings here. The only toilet that comes with wax rings----and they are not really large enough----is Cotto......at least the toilets that are around 6000 + baht. We ordered wax rings from Home Depot in the states and had someone bring them over. six rings super cheap.
Cruzing



That’s a good point, toilet coupling is definitely something you should discuss with your Thai plumber.

Sealing rings are available in TH but not always easy to find. Tengwu (Chinese wax seal maker) are available along with a few other makes I believe.

.


Please tell me where to buy in Thailand if they are available. I have several friends getting ready to build houses. We searched high and low for wax rings when building and never did find a source.

thanks,
cruzing



The wife tells me they came from Telcon in Bangbon Bangkok. Its a Chinese owned builders merchant we used a while back. We are back in Chonburi next month, from there I can hook you up with a supplier. I have made a note on the to do list.


.
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Postby mistifarang » Wed May 17, 2006 2:11 pm

John wrote:
mistifarang wrote:
John wrote: Septic tanks are not designed to be odour locks. If a septic tank and related plumbing are installed correctly there will be no smells from pipes or tanks.
Trouble with Thailand is they are rarely installed well and not much thought is given to the type of waste that can reduce bio action (kitchen waste).
I have absolutely no time for 80% of Thai plumbers. Lack of knowledge and shoddy workmanship makes it difficult for them to keep liquids and smelly gases inside pipes.

.


All sounds a bit arrogant to me. Although I had the same problem in Spain I respected their way of working until a certain level. I refused to implant my northern European “style” in the country which was hosting me but……when it really could affect the quality I had to supply than I asked them to change some technique, to be less careless and to think future wise, to think about eventual consequences. I never started saying or even laughing about poor craftsmanship or starting to import local material used abroad. My slogan was: “Local craftsmanship combined with northern European know how” but not at all cost. Like I have seen so many times abroad that expats wanting their own “quality”, food and habits implanted in the country they are living, like only their previous environment is the most civilised, developed. My goal was always to leave the local inhabitants in their value and to try to instruct them in which I succeeded with my own staff (up to 40) and the sub-contractors/plumbers/electricians.

Again, and again, I mentioned that the best way is to put siphons underneath the sanitary devices. If not fitted in a proper way or lacking and one is suffering of bad odours than my solution is to find the waste for these, to see if the plumber used a trap, odour lock or whatever name and see if that one has been made in a proper way. When that has been corrected in the way I tried to explain I personally can GUARANTEE you that you don’t have bad odours anymore. Such a trap is working like a wash hand basin siphon but the lay out is bigger and usable for more draining items but NOT for loos. I have seen that they make separate drains for loos evacuating straight away into the septic tank.

The other “hot” item seems to be the loo-joints. Well, I can tell, that we never used a single one in the villas we built according to the local techniques and no complaint whatsoever! The sewer (installed underneath because all the drainage of a lot of European countries are invisible) could have a certain margin which could be corrected by an eccentrically reduction collar, one end fitted onto the loo with a joint, ONLY to avoid that it was coming off whilst placing the loo and the other side, with a diameter of 90 cms., joined the sewer pipe (min. 110 cms) loose. So without a “proper” seal, which was not available there and never used. The “secret” was a bed of a white special cement-mixture or fast drying chemical cement (rapido) underneath the foot of the loo. No special imports from the States, Holland, Switzerland (Geberit) or wherever and the quality was more than satisfying. Aboriginals? Might be, but not to save money whatsoever.
My meanings are just ideas, suggestions and opinions or, if you wish, critics (but always positively meant) to start a discussion or to open minds, to ventilate another view of an outsider.
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Postby John » Thu May 18, 2006 12:00 am

mistifarang wrote:All sounds a bit arrogant to me. BLA BLA ....




I have all the respect in the world for Thai people and their country but when it comes down to business and my money the rules are the same for everyone.

Arrogance yes, towards anyone who claims to be competent then later shows otherwise. The level of this arrogance depends on just how much this incompetence costs the project or in severe cases endangers the future safety of others. There’s no place for mister nice guy in construction management no matter where the location. This is even more applicable in a country where there is total lack of code, regulation and safety practice.

My wife owns a small Thai construction business whose client base is 80% foreign. My role is to ensure this business works efficiently and to a high standard while maintaining a decent level of profit. Western input has to date improved on what were little more than antiquated building practices best laid to rest in some archive. Every member of our permanent team has at some time benefited from my experience and ability to access information about latest products and methods.

Finally, I have been in construction management for 20 years speak my mind and can smell bullshitters 50 kilometres away.




.
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Postby Boon Mee » Thu May 18, 2006 4:03 pm

John wrote:I have been in construction management for 20 years speak my mind and can smell bullshitters 50 kilometres away.

Good on ya John.
Excellent post.
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