Walls burglars and neighbors ...

[MangoPin]

I read a lot of posts about perimeter walls, burglaries through roofs etc. Looks like walls are thought to be a necessary part of any build.

A wall will perhaps make an illegal entry slightly more difficult, keep an elevated land in place (does not need to be 2 meters though), be a place to put lights, keep your privacy (I prefer plants and trees for this), keep some snakes away and possibly act as a dust filter. Apart from that I think walls are plain ugly and only isolates you. Even with the most expensive paint stuff, my experience tells me they will be dirty and look old already after a month. And if you have a wall, why not go all the way and put razor wire or broken glass on top? Do not see this often.
I may be a bit naïve here but we never had a problem with thieves. But maybe it is just a matter of time until they find their way here too.


However, I believe my best insurance is our neighbors. One of them already called one night to ask if a couple she had confronted knocking at our door were, as they claimed, our friends, which they actually were. I have a low fishnet wire fence on my lot border, mostly to keep the dogs apart and short cutters off the land. I believe this fence gives my land the same legal status as a wall, I know the laws for trespassing are not the same if your land is totally open. I hear that you are more or less free to kill anyone uninvited being on your fenced in land after darkness . Not that it would be my first choice.

Everyday we have a chat with our thai neighbors over the fence, sometimes share some fruit or some garden tools. If I would put a high wall in its place I am sure our everyday encounters would cease and I am not so sure they would call the next time someone entered our land. That is, if they would even notice them on the other side of the wall. Once inside, even with a wall, you still have to trust yourself or your neighbors to fend them off and/or call the police. Walls to me are a clear marker of how you look upon the environment you have chosen to live in, including your neighbors. I also know that any thai who can afford a wall will also put one, a bit contradictory to my reasoning, I know.

Now I realize that if you have some very valuable stuff in your house you would perhaps not just trust your neighbors to wake up in the middle of the night. My suggestion would be to install an alarm system. I don’t know what they cost but a simple one with a siren e.g. should probably be cheaper than a wall. And something tells me the thieves will run even before the neighbors have gotten out of bed. Why not a live webcam uploading the events in real time and/or records stills on a web server? I played with the free yawcam.com program before. This has motion detection and other nice stuff. It works. Plan to do something funny with this on my next build.

Another funny aspect of things changing hands comes to mind. I have myself lost some items during the years. Most have later been found, openly staying with thai friends and family often visiting us. A hammer there, my gasoline lighter with a brother, Small things that seem to fall into the thai category of; “what is on the table is common property”. I don’t really have problem with this, only frustrating when you cannot find something that you think you misplaced.

So to conclude. Do I have any soul mate out there? Am I the only one with these ideas?
How many have had their place broken into? If not, you think it was because you had a wall?

Please, some comments (money can be saved=would make a good title)

MangoPin

[geordie]

You are a recent addition Mangopin or you would have no doubt concluded that i bellyache a lot about the comunal property and its ok for him to help himself he is family culture my wife expects me to tolerate when i have not a pot to p..s in (add - is ) i will share it out as her family do
just a couple drag a bottle of Tia maria 6000 miles leave it with beer thai whiskey brothers drank Tia maria then complained they did not like it beer and whisky went to the farm for later consumption

Spend holiday building a wall and outhouses x2 decorate and clean house for mum leave for england having deposited virtually new motorbikes x 2 in new outhouse my bike 2300 km bees bike 6000 explisit instructions given DO NOT USE MY BIKE if you have too- use bees bike
Return to thailand bees bike up 700km needs garage not working several knocks to bike
my bike up 300km looking like s**t battered to bits £300 to repair and paint

Front of car repaired twice he brother drunk crashed twice

Cigarettes english stocked at 7-11 but small supply so every day 3 packets of cigaretes for brothers and dad thai brand her brother likes to save them for down the farm so if mine are on the table he will freely offer them around then i find out he has been going into my lugage and helping himself no problem its only 40 minuites each way for me to buy new

A burglar alarm that will work on a telephone line and also a mobile phone card sending you a text and voice message if you are burgled £300 i will be bringing one with me works on a wireless system so easy to install and reliable it will even let you know if you have a power out and run on its own battery for several hours

But will it stop the theft I think not although it will give you a sporting chance of hanging on to your property from strangers taking it when you are not there
sorry ten years of abuse of trust has left me with little especially where her brothers are involved i would in fact trust a pattaya bar girl more you know at least what she wants

[MangoPin]

Geordie, hows your life as retired? Maybe busier than ever, I hear this can happen
Anyway points taken. As you see I have the same problem (as many of us I guess) but on a much smaller scale. But I consider this a different thing, loosing things to your invited(?) family or friends or finding out that they have used your gear and inevitably damaged them. For this, a wall will not help and that was my original point. I guess you could avoid some abuse by locking things in, say no to everything and simply not give them access to your place and stuff. But, I believe you are not that kind of person who would trade family peace for having your stuff let alone. A dilemma, I know. I have a friend who "gave" the brother a pick-up so he could work on my friend´s rubber plantation. First time my friend returned the brother had lowered the chassis, made it into a "sportster" pickup, all on my friend´s unknowing expense. The pickup couldnt even enter the rubber plantation anymore. Friend angry of course but not much to do, family peace and all that.
Next time he arrived the brother had traded the pickup for a normal sedan. Well, what can you say?

So anyone have experience with "real" burglars? And your views on walls?

MangoPin

[geordie]

Hang on we have covered the real burglars ??
Do you now want to discuss theives of oportunity
Obviously crime having been my profesion for 30+ years i have encounterd some horror stories
one of the worst is creeppers they will burgle you with stealth while you are sleeping take what they can and leave usually small portable stuff that sells easily the unfortunate horror behind this is what will they do if you wake up and confront them are you putting youself at risk of physical attack the realization that you have slept through this sort of buglary is hard to handle lots of anger generated by fear of what could have been done all while you slept you could well easily be killed

Then there is the profesional studies your habbits time you are at work how long you tend to stay out and do you go out at regular times say friday a couple of hours shopping
this could also be the lad down the street who knows you???
or the gardener who you trust but has financial problems
or just sheer temptation you left a window or door unlocked

its hard to tottally secure a premises without turning your house into a fortress but a dog will be my first line of defence unfortunately a dog can be bribed also most dogs bolt off to play if you open the gate and back off for a few minuites they will enjoy the freedom you have given them or even worse someone will poison your dog ?? if the dog dies mysteriously borrow another dog quickly you never know secure the dog when you are out a decent sized run near the house he is guarding his job is to make a noise and deter people hopefully

a burglar alarm will also be on the menu a lot harder to defeat than bars or locks hopefully will alert the neighbours who will investigate and me at the same time via dialing out on the phone several things here show the neighbours how great it is and it phones you they might be eying up your plasma tv set it off regular to test it so all and sundry know you have it link it to a panick button so if the wife is on her own she can trigger the alarm remotely you might be away on buisness try and befriend the local police so they know where the house is and know you have good security

walls are a deterent insomutch as you have earmarked that peice of ground and said its mine
most thais know that once they have climbed over it what happens afterwards is in the hands of budda make no bones about it they can and will climb it with very little effort but they can never be 100% sure what is waiting on the other side the windows you can add bars but with the price of boltcroppers hacksaws is it worth it other than to cause slight inconvenience buy the best locks you can for all external doors if they cannot open the door the telly might be still there when you get home make external doors open outwards very dificult to kick open that way hide a camera in the house with a recording device if all else fails it would be useful to have a picture of the vilain you can also see what the familly BORROW?

[MangoPin]

Hi Geordie,
Read your post with interest. Always something to learn from you. Guess you worked on the right side of the law .Now my english may be a bit to my disadvantage and I believe we may be misunderstanding each other somewhat.

My question was simply how many have actually had their house in Thailand broken into. And, if not, do you think is it because you have a high wall.
Perhaps this is a sensitive topic and maybe I cannot expect so many answers, I dont know. Its just that a perimeter wall seems to be as neccessary as a bathroom. Is it also like this in England, US, Austrailia? In Sweden it is very uncommon (though probably more needed than in Thailand)

For a place in the countryside, having neighbors without walls, i would never put one myself because they are ugly, isolates you and I believe will not stop any determined burglar. They also cost money but this is secondary to me. A low and simple wire fence should physically, mentally and legally do the same job. Jumping over this means crossing the line.

Understand that in an urban area where plots are small and everyone else has a wall then I would most likely put one myself.

The other thing, with friends and family nicking and abusing things is to me another story. Unless they actually break into your place, then they would fall into the thieves category since they are not invited to your place.

For the things you describe with friends and family, I have the same stories, only on a much lower scale, then what can you do? Call the police? I guess not. You would probably just have to accept it to keep the family peace. Or lock everything up. Keep your fags in your pocket etc etc. No fun.

And about dogs, of course you should have at least one. Good in finding snakes also. We had one, Khun Phop, poisoned already (job taken over by his son and wife). So did some of my neighbors. We believe the night barking drives someone crazy. Have our suspicions but no proof. Its a very cruel thing to do. Not a pretty death.

MangoPin

[geordie]

Being a country boy the liklyhood of a burglary is low and almost a certanty that if it happens you will know the culprit
It is on the other hand a popular pastime in places like pattaya as is mugging and theft the wall is valuless as far as i am concerned other than to give you a degree of privacy which most of us like to enjoy although like youself i do enjoy good relations with my neighbours and frequently invite them into my home also
My wife is paranoid about burglars but in her village there have been a few a couple of years ago the vilage idiot (true he is a half wit) went on a crime spree burglerising several homes and if they had nothing else he woul steal their rice cooker saucepans clothes and sell them for recycling because he was a retard there is nothing anyone can do and i beleive he is still at it
long before that her family demonstrated their paranoia and to this day have not changed the house is never left un ocupied overnight and even during the day its highly unusual for there not to be someone in the house but this is a thai on thai situation i personally have only ever read about crime in pattaya courtesy of pattaya city news online which if its all true the place is the new wild west having stayed there several times whilst diving i have again no personal experience of crime my mate has lived there 12 years never been burgled although Jon tien features heavily on that one

[fredlk]

I have never experienced a burglary in Thailand and I hope I never will. I am building a high boundary wall, but that is mainly as a warning to keep out. It is also to keep out snakes, keep the dogs in and to give some privacy. Oh yes and also to hold back the soil when it rains. The house itself will be visible from outside because the wall will be stepped down the hill.
I don't want iron grates on my windows and doors.
I will have 2 dogs to be my guards and early warning sytem. As there are no neighbours with dogs, I am hoping that there won't be too much unnecesary barking, but I think that's where discipline of my own dogs comes in.
I will be having live-in staff, hopefully an older married couple from another province so that they like to stay in of an evening and do not have all their local friends around to visit.
I will add lighting with motion-sensors to light up the walls if breached although that might be a problem with animals, birds and the like. I don't like to have lights on the whole night unnecessarily.
I might put up a couple of real or fake cameras as a visible warning to any one casing the joint so that they think that they might not get away with it.
I might have an alarm but that is also difficult with animals around.
I am not at all paranoid or scared, but the Thai generally are and because I am almost in the middle of nowhere, walls and security seem to be expected of me by family, builder, project manager.
I will see to it that my computers are constantly backing up and to a disk which is hidden and locked away so that if in the event of theft, I do not have the pain of losing precious data as well.
I will also have household insurance and maybe a built-in safe somewhere on the property.
When I read the above I do seem paranoid but these are all the things that I have been reading about and thinking of during the design process.
Anyway, "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure".
Fred.

[geordie]

Fred as you state its expected of you the size and style of your build will draw attention as blatantly non thai its not going to lend itself to security grills either
so you will have to rely on the dogs unfortunately realease them from the property bribe them with food or poison them all posibilities and at best they will be local alarm call only alternately full blown guard dogs locked up when the house is ocupied not safe to have around with visitors/chidren
modern electronics can work if you buy the right gear make the camera,s big and blatant no detterant if they are hidden
Hide the real cameras and the recording device Uk prices it will cost £400-£500 for a four way system with a hard drive recorder not a huge sum
a wireless alarm with telephone and a sim facility £300 extra movement detectors £60 with zoning so you can arm part of the system while you sleep and the movement detectors are inteligent enough to ignore pets these days so not an issue
Houshold insurance is ok but i have seen first hand the distress caused by these events the house loses some of its apeal your privacy has been invaded a simple wire tensioned along the wall to set off an alarm sounder and lighting with it is great and will stop them entering even the grounds there are various beams that will transmit straight line sixty to eighty meters giving perimiter protection glass break detectors that alarm as soon as someone breaks a window stop them entering the house unanounced the big worry is who will come to your assistance in the event that a determined intruder puts a knife to you throat and insists you hand over your valuables and the no for the safe
Having depressed the crap out of you my alarm is twenty years old not sure if it works anymore
I have a safe and in it is nothing the stuff i want to keep i would never put in there but i do have cameras good locks 4 dogs and a tracking system on my vehicle that will if i ask it give me a grid reference on google earth i also have a realistic atittude you can replace most things but not your health its important to realise that if someone is determined enough they will try and rob you but you are looking at a 1-100000 chance of it being you as far as an agravated burglary is concerned however oportunist dependant upon area can drop as low as 1-100 all you can do is take the best precautions you can

[fredlk]

Geordie, all valid points, but I think that generally in Thailand if one does experience a burglary there is little or no violence. Unlike the professional thugs in the U.K. or Brazil the thieves here are small time opportunists and mostly unarmed. If anyone breaches my property then they are most likely doing so to find valuables and sellable items. I also want cute dogs, not Pitbulls.
In my present house in a moo baan in Bangkok I leave doors and windows open and unlocked most of the time.
Fred.

[BKKBILL]

Many good points stated here have read them with interest. Planning on moving to the Chiang Mai area and the land we are interested in has a number of creeks that are registered so we end up with eight separate Chanot-thi-din on about nine rai of land. This leaves creeks on the property lines and the last thing I want to do is put a high fence between them and the houses. Eventually there will be eight to ten homes here as I am planning to set this up for retired foreigners, so thinking of a lower picket style mainly to keep in our dogs and make boundary lines. Still thinking this one out though.
I think the main reason for grates over windows here is so you can leave them open at night. In our neighbor hood here in BKK there have been a few robberies but they have been the sneak in and out ones not the a break and enter type. Household insurance we have but as you said it’s the feelings after that is the big problem. Stuff can be replaced. We did have a robbery in Canada and my wife didn’t sleep properly for months. That was when we got our first rottweiler. Great dogs we brought her with us she is buried here on a friends farm and we now have a Thai rottweiler. Just about as nice.
Do like the idea of a wireless alarm with telephone and cameras.

[Galee]

the thieves here are small time opportunists .

That's true. Today I went to put on my brand new sandals that were left on the porch. They were an expensive gift from my wife. Some scum bag has nicked them.

[geordie]

Gallee get yourself down to a busy temple and find a replacement pair i cracked up reading about your shoes that is a common crime in the uk we have seen the culprit several times red/brown coat big ears fast on his feet very shrewd
you gotta love the urban fox

[Beon]

No one has ever stolen anything from me, or broken into my house or wilfully damaged my property here in LOS. The same goes for my friends. It cant just be coincidence or good luck, because its already four years in passing. Ive left my scooter with the keys in at restaurants, left grocery bags on the street, left tool boxes on my pickup truck, etc, but it is always left alone. That stuff would be gone in minutes in Los Angeles or Stockholm where I lived before.

Im probably the opposite of you Mangopin, I selected my land plot so I could stay away from people, so it has no neighbours at all, the only adjacent plot is a corn field, the rest is national park. Closest neighbour is 1 km away. A feast for the thief because he can work undisturbed, but on the other hand so remote that it doesnt get attention from anyone but the locals.

I always try to be nice to the locals and the village elder (phu yai baan), mostly because they are all very nice people, but also because I dont want them to turn against me for some reason. Who knows what silly xenophobic ideas they can get since Im the only farang in the community. I hope they see me as a contributing member of the community. But then again, I moved here to be alone, so I hope they just leave me be. Its a hard issue, because Thai culture is based so much on social life.

I think the Thai mentality is that "anything that is accessible without breaking in, is free to take". For example during the construction of my house there have been locals entering my property without asking, simply because the gate is open. Then they walk around, pick fruit and ants from my trees and veggies from near the pond, as if that is completely normal as if my land is public property. At this stage I dont mind really. But for security I think you want as many layers as possible to break, before anyone can access the good stuff.

Ive got a barbed wire fence with lockable gates. The main door will be a double door (wood + metal), same goes for all windows. Garage has a metal gate. One of the rooms in the house is a music studio with no windows, with a thick soundproofing ceiling of steel bars and rockwool (if I can find it), and a special lockable soundproof door. Thats where I will keep the valuable stuff. I figure I can only do so much; if the thief wants to break in he will.

When I travel I will hire a local to stay in the house and take care of the garden. No dogs for me, I cant stand dogs.

Im not planning to use any alarm or security cameras, but I might put up signs to that effect to scare off thieves.