Udon Thani Area - Electriction

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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sat May 20, 2017 4:58 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
kmanonmaui wrote:Question on grounding to the rebar: With all of my columns already poured now about 3 foot above ground level and all columns are already tied into the footings and each other with rebar via the footings, do you think it wiser to:

It is too late unless you start mucking around with stuff that shouldn't be mucked around with. Rebar is not exactly the best conductor, which is why copper is used.

Steel is actually quite a reasonable, if it's thick enough, conductor as is damp concrete. The reason why copper wire, and aluminium wire, is used is because it is ductile and a good conductor for aluminium and an excellent conductor for copper, steel is a good conductor if the cross section is big enough but not ductile. For proof just look a any car, they all use steel. :wink:

So in short tie a 10m2 wire (use a proper clamp) into your exposed rebar and you can join that to the earth cable coming from the earth stake that the PEA will insist on and you will have the best of both systems, a UFER ground that will always work and the PEA required and approved rod that works only if it's in damp ground.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby kmanonmaui » Sat May 20, 2017 7:09 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:Steel is actually quite a reasonable, if it's thick enough, conductor as is damp concrete. The reason why copper wire, and aluminium wire, is used is because it is ductile and a good conductor for aluminium and an excellent conductor for copper, steel is a good conductor if the cross section is big enough but not ductile. For proof just look a any car, they all use steel. :wink:

So in short tie a 10m2 wire (use a proper clamp) into your exposed rebar and you can join that to the earth cable coming from the earth stake that the PEA will insist on and you will have the best of both systems, a UFER ground that will always work and the PEA required and approved rod that works only if it's in damp ground.


Couple rambling thoughts...can't sleep...
1. I think if I can get thick enough copper rods (3/4") to drive into the ground, I can slightly angle it to get past the gravel and into the moist soil with the top being within a foot or so off the exterior wall...would need to be 3m long I think.
2. Would it be overkill to do a rod on each side of the house (no pun intended with the usage of kill in relation to the subject at hand) and tying the wire to each of them back to the electric panel?
3a. The flooring will be metal joists, on top of beams, tied to the metal walls which will also tie to the metal trusses and the metal roof, wondering if wouldn't also be wise to tie the flooring to the rod(s) with the 10m2 wire in addition to the rebar to the rod(s) as well?
3b. No reason I couldn't also tie the large rebar coming out of each post into the walls with the same, and clamps, BEFORE I have the rest of the posts filled up with additional rebar and concrete to the height required. Dumb?
4. Wise or unnecessary to, at each electrical junction box (which will mostly be within the metal flooring), to pig-tail off a ground wire and screw it into the flooring as well?
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Klondyke » Sat May 20, 2017 9:40 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote: Rebar is not exactly the best conductor, which is why copper is used.


Of course copper is better conductor than steel. However, considering the huge quantity of the thick rebars in the foundation structure, the resulting conductivity is much better than a copper rod. And you get the grounding free.

BTW, the copper parts - rods and thick cables - are often here stolen and sold - without taking any notice about that.

Perhaps you can drill a hole in the columns and reach the rebars. And/or see whether the vertical rebars were connected to the roof steel structure. Then, you can connect to the spot nearest to your main board.

In general, don't overdo your concern about the grounding.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby schuimpge » Sat May 20, 2017 9:56 pm

Do not put multiple grounding rods around the house.
There's a good chance you'd be creating a loop-back from one rod to the next if the leakage is strong enough or for example in the case of lightning strike.
1 grounding point only where everything is tied to.

Cheers,
Luc
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat May 20, 2017 11:30 pm

There's a couple of things there that are not quite right. Cars are not made of steel. My BMW is all aluminum, except for some parts like the drive shaft and the drive in the transmission.
I have separate cables and separate electrical boxes for each floor of the house and the garage. The three separate cables will not cause a loop as is claimed as they run through Safe-T-Cut boards and the earth runs from each board to their own ground rods.
Connecting the earth to the rebar in the roof means that the rebar in the ground has to be exposed and will rust. Copper doesn't rust which is why it is used. If you link through the metal trusses in the roof you'll make a Faraday cage, but I wouldn't like to bank on it going through the concrete into the ground. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 083249.htm and there's another few thousand sites out there that say don't do it.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat May 20, 2017 11:30 pm

double post removed.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby kmanonmaui » Sun May 21, 2017 1:22 am

schuimpge wrote:Do not put multiple grounding rods around the house.
There's a good chance you'd be creating a loop-back from one rod to the next if the leakage is strong enough or for example in the case of lightning strike.
1 grounding point only where everything is tied to.

Cheers,
Luc

As a layman, this didn't make sense to me. As a person knowing that he doesn't know what he doesn't know, I researched it. Though not easily found, I was able to find multiple quotes from electrician forums and US building code documents related to or touching upon on this topic. You are 100% correct.

While multiple rods can be used:
- "If multiple ground rods are used, Code requires that they all must be bonded to the main utility power grounding electrode. They should also be minimum of 6 foot apart"
- "The grounding rod should be driven into the ground far enough from the house that it will not contact the underground concrete footing of the house, which protrudes horizontally about 1 foot from the base of the foundation. To ensure there is no interference from the footing, the ground rod should be placed no closer than 2 feet from the exterior wall of the house"

So, I take this all to mean "If you are unsure of the single rod you have and want to use multiple, make damn sure they all are tied together."
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun May 21, 2017 8:10 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:Connecting the earth to the rebar in the roof means that the rebar in the ground has to be exposed and will rust.


Sorry you are wrong. The rebar does not have any need to be exposed. So no rust problem

Herbert G. Ufer a consultant working for the U.S. Army. discovered that concrete had better conductivity than most types of soil. The use of concrete enclosed grounding conductors was added to the U.S. National Electrical Code (NEC) in 1968



Roger Ramjet wrote:Cars are not made of steel.


Get real, I did not say "made of steel" I said "use steel"

Roger Ramjet wrote:My BMW is all aluminum

And what exactly does that prove? Your last car had a steel chassis


The vast majority of all 4 wheeled and virtually every vehicle with more than 4 wheels have a steel frame. There are very few that do not have a steel chassis and then only when you get into the high, to very high prices and even then only a few do not use steel.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun May 21, 2017 11:53 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:The vast majority of all 4 wheeled and virtually every vehicle with more than 4 wheels have a steel frame. There are very few that do not have a steel chassis and then only when you get into the high, to very high prices and even then only a few do not use steel.

So a 700,000 10 year old BMW is now a very high end car, and I take it so is Volvo and Audi and the rest of the drivers' cars. I think not.
All these car makers have not used steel in a chassis for over 14 years. Only American cars still use steel for their chassis, and most Japanese car makers are tooling to change to aluminum, as some already have (Mazda) and Hyundai are well in front of the Japanese who have kept the same basic design now for over 14 years, both in chassis and engine. They are obsolete. Not one reputable motoring journalist would recommend you buy one, but most journalists are scared their livelihood will dry up if they should mention that fact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgp8H_MOJXE He's the only real motoring journalist with the guts to tell it like it is and he's been banned from testing Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, VW, Porch and other cars that are outdated or have defects.
There are few who will buck the trend for fear of losing their job, Top Gear presenters bucked that trend and also got banned by Toyota and other manufacturers which is why they test only the high end cars that become low end cars in 5 years.
The real reason used cars are so expensive in Thailand is the fable they are getting their tax money back. It's a fable, the same car in England is worth peanuts.
As far as concrete being a good conductor, you didn't read what I posted and what you posted either. They are talking about lightening strikes in both, not conductivity of household electricity, hence I mentioned Faraday cages.
Concrete has never been a "good" conductor of electricity. I'm sure you could make even glass carry an electrical charge, but not wood or plastic.
Always tangents, always worthless, next it will be physics 101 at high school level, but we'll bump it up to first year uni.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun May 21, 2017 2:01 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:The vast majority of all 4 wheeled and virtually every vehicle with more than 4 wheels have a steel frame. There are very few that do not have a steel chassis and then only when you get into the high, to very high prices and even then only a few do not use steel.

So a BMW is now a high end car,
It certainly was when new. :roll:

Roger Ramjet wrote:and I take it so is (are) Volvo and Audi

Are 2 of the very few makes using aluminium in the chassis extensively up to now
Roger Ramjet wrote:and the rest of the drivers' cars. I think not.


No they almost all use steel

However the example of using steel as a conductor is demonstrated in the majority of motor vehicles ever made. And the fact that manufactures are now changing to the use of aluminium as a frame component has nothing to do with its electrical conductivity and everything to do with weight.

Roger Ramjet wrote:Concrete has never been a "good" conductor of electricity.


It doesn't have to be good, (I didn't say that it was, I said a reasonable conductor) it just has to be better than soil which in most cases it is

Roger Ramjet wrote:They are talking about lightening strikes in both, not conductivity of household electricity, hence I mentioned Faraday cages.


You are rather behind the times (around 50 years). Yes, the original use (1942~1945) was grounding for lightening strikes. However continued research presented in a paper in 1963 ( "Electrical Grounding and Bonding" By J. Philip Simmons) demonstrated its benefits in general grounding.


The use of concrete enclosed grounding conductors was added to the U.S. National Electrical Code (NEC) in 1968. It was not required to be used if a water pipe or other grounding electrode was present. In 1978, the NEC required rebar to be used as a grounding electrode if present. The NEC refers to this type of ground as a "Concrete Encased Electrode" (CEE) instead of using the name Ufer ground


And so you are saying that you have better information Than the US National Electric Code?

Roger Ramjet wrote:Always tangents
Hmm, yes you are rather good at that. :? :wink:

The topic is not about the construction of your (when new high end) car's chassis or about developments in motor vehicles.

It is about grounding a domestic electrical system. So to get back to that

Concrete is naturally basic (has high pH). Ufer observed this meant that it had a ready supply of ions and so provides a better electrical ground than almost any type of soil. Ufer also found that the soil around the concrete became "doped", and its subsequent rise in pH caused the overall impedance of the soil itself to be reduced.[3] The concrete enclosure also increases the surface area of the connection between the grounding conductor and the surrounding soil, which also helps to reduce the overall impedance of the connection.


The much larger number of column footings required for structural reasons does, when used, provide much more effective grounding under all soil conditions than previously used systems.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun May 21, 2017 4:48 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:The topic is not about the construction of your (when new high end) car's chassis or about developments in motor vehicles.

It is about grounding a domestic electrical system. So to get back to that

Ah quite so, (I'll keep it short so you can't take up another page with squirming), you raised cars, not me, I just happen to know cars a lot better than you. Frame STWW, total frame, not frame component, it hurts to be wrong all the time, so stop trying to deflect things with untrue tangents
Tell me STWW if concrete is even a fair conductor of electricity why don't the US (Oh and Thailand and Australia) use it to ground their power poles. The US strictly forbids it, as concrete is not a good conductor of electricity, hence you should see before and after every transformer at the base of the concrete power pole an earthing rod, if the Thais haven't stolen it But it's there in the US and Australia. I know, I know we are in Thailand, so why quote out of date US Codes in this thread? Don't ask me. I just did what two members who were electricians recommended. Use copper, three rods joined, in damp ground, one for each circuit. Use Japanese made copper wire as the Thai made has no quality control. That was about it, but those damned STWW tangents got thrown in.
Now I know which I would prefer to buy, a 700,000 Baht 10 year old BMW 525i SE than a Honda Jazz that is 15 years out of date, even though the plate on it says this years date. I used to get just 9 to 12 kilometres a litre out of the 1.5 litre Jazz and I do get 14 kilometres per litre out of the 1.3 litre Swift (3 years old), but I get 16 kilometres to the litre out of the BMW and that has nothing to do with weight as the BMW is heavier. Have a think, I'm sure you'll find a tangent.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby canopy » Sun May 21, 2017 7:49 pm

Like anything else, anyone wishing to install a UFER ground should find a professional or spend a lot of time understanding the requirements. It's not something you just willy nilly wrap a wire from the panel around an arbitrary piece of rebar and presto it's done. There are critical things that might not be obvious like you must attach to rebar that is over 20 feet long. Copper and metal are incompatible materials and if joining them, special clamps are needed. If you have a plastic vapor barrier sheet wrapped around your foundation, a UFER ground won't work. So on and so forth there's tons of things you must adhere to for it to work correctly.

And t the OP, some of the things you are thinking of doing are cringe worthy. You know enough to understand you need a professional electrician and that is commendable. I hope you find a good one. You shouldn't have to be worrying over these things / as a novice designing anything yourself. Since no one has offered any leads, one thing you can do is go to your watsadu or other building store. There is usually a place where contractors post their business cards on the wall. Smaller building stores you can ask and they will give you recommendations. To separate the men from the boys ask to see their work. Many will make excuses and then run away scared rather than show you anything. The ones with enough pride and confidence in their work will show it to you.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun May 21, 2017 8:55 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:The topic is not about the construction of your (when new high end) car's chassis or about developments in motor vehicles.

It is about grounding a domestic electrical system. So to get back to that


Tell me STWW if concrete is even a fair conductor of electricity why don't the US (Oh and Thailand and Australia) use it to ground their power poles.


Simple, there is not enough area of concrete reinforced with steel in contact with the ground. The minimum length of rebar encased in concrete and in earth contact required is 6 metres, though it is not required to be a single length just bonded
The minimum length of 6.0 m (20 ft) can be accomplished by multiple reinforcing bars being bonded together using the usual steel tie wire


Roger Ramjet wrote:The US strictly forbids it, as concrete is not a good conductor of electricity, hence you should see before and after every transformer at the base of the concrete power pole an earthing rod,


See above, please come back to the topic of grounding a domestic electrical system. It isn't about grounding electrical distribution poles.

Roger Ramjet wrote:I know, I know we are in Thailand, so why quote out of date US Codes in this thread? Don't ask me. I just did what two members who were electricians recommended. Use copper, three rods joined, in damp ground, one for each circuit.




The point I was making is that the requirement for Concrete encased electrodes is not new. It has not changed. It is in the current codes. They also add that

According to the National Electrical Code, the following can be used as grounding electrodes and if more than one is present they must be bonded together:
• Underground metal water pipe (NEC 250.52 (A)(1))
• Metal frame of the structure (NEC 250.52 (A)(2))
• Concrete encased grounding electrode (a.k.a. UFER ground) (NEC 250.52 (A)(3))
• Ground ring (NEC 250.52 (A)(4))
• Ground rod (NEC 250.52 (A)(5))
• Grounding plates (NEC 250.52 (A)(6))



They also note that if you have a vapour barrier on the outside of your foundations then they are not suitable to be used as a CEE ground.
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby kmanonmaui » Mon May 22, 2017 2:37 am

canopy wrote:<snip>OP, some of the things you are thinking of doing are cringe worthy. You know enough to understand you need a professional electrician and that is commendable. I hope you find a good one. You shouldn't have to be worrying over these things / as a novice designing anything yourself. Since no one has offered any leads, one thing you can do is go to your watsadu or other building store. There is usually a place where contractors post their business cards on the wall. Smaller building stores you can ask and they will give you recommendations. To separate the men from the boys ask to see their work. Many will make excuses and then run away scared rather than show you anything. The ones with enough pride and confidence in their work will show it to you.

Yes, I understand what you are saying...it is not that I am "thinking of doing", I believe is was clear in just asking and trying to learn from others. Sometimes making a list of options is more helpful for those responding to say "a" and "c" are crazy, for example. Thanks for the advice on finding an electrician. My "current" plan is to contract with one in Bangkok, purchase most of the materials there and ship them up. Unfortunately, still have to go through the processes of vetting a company in Bangkok, but at least it is easier to find a list to start with.

Again, to all readers that have already done their electric work, if your electrician could be recommended I would rather use one locally. And, thanks in advance!

Sometimewoodworker wrote:It is about grounding a domestic electrical system. So to get back to that

Yes, thank you very much!

Sometimewoodworker wrote:They also note that if you have a vapour barrier on the outside of your foundations then they are not suitable to be used as a CEE ground.


Which is exactly my case...you must have taken the time to look at some of the pics!
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Re: Udon Thani Area - Electriction

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon May 22, 2017 7:47 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:The point I was making is that the requirement for Concrete encased electrodes is not new. It has not changed. It is in the current codes. They also add that

Just what country do you quote STWW? That looks like a US Code to me and I thought we were in Thailand. Just another tangent.
I really should stop this, but you are the expert here.
I forgot to mention Subaru and it might interest you to know that your F100 pick-up has been all aluminum since 2014 https://www.angieslist.com/articles/all ... ts-say.htm but I wouldn't buy one. And all those trucks you claimed have steel bodies, most don't.
But at the first poster wanted to stick to house electrical, I'll just post what i did at the start. Copper wires from a Japanese company, the rest from an electrical specialty shop..... and a word of warning, most of those shops deal in cash only and your bill can run out to over 100,000 baht. Good luck with the electrician.
If you get desperate I posted the phone number of my electrician in Nontharburi, he might do the work for you, but he's not cheap.
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