Solar Power and other forms of Alternative energy

Information on electric installation and anything related to electric.
Design, materials, sources & prices, for separate topics on:
- Wiring diagrams, regulations and standards
- materials, installation, connection.
- sources & prices
- hazards and trouble shooting
Before you post any questions, download Itchy's tutorials and search for an answer there.

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL, pattayapope, Attila

Solar Power and other forms of Alternative energy

Postby arranp » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:12 pm

Hello,

Stage 1:
Researching Home Solar System to make residential electric free.

To replace a monthly 7,000 baht bill of electric (normal cost for house with pool and air cons), divide by the cost of electric, 3.98 baht per kWh = 1,759 kWh consumption per month.

Solar hours per day in Thailand is 5 multiply by 30 days per month is 150 solar hours. Take the consumption per month 1,759 divide by the solar hours 150 = 11.74 kWh array is needed.

The is a 40 panel array (250 watt per panel) + an inverter to change the DC to AC. The cost of such an array as per the link is 364,000 baht, so should pay for itself in under 5 years.

http://www.amornsolar.com/index.php?mo=18&display=view_single&pid=1559238

The Provincial Electric Authority, provides 2 meters, the electric produced goes through the SELL meter, the electric used comes through the BUY meter.

Although this system will not provide electric during outages at night, it should eliminate the electric bills. At least this is my thoughts so far.

I would welcome feed back.

Stage 2:
Introduce an Electrolyser, to convert water into H2 and O2 and store in tanks.

a) H2 and O2 can be used to fill up a car converted to run on H2
b) during electrical outages the stored H2 and O2 can be re-combined through a Proton exchange membrane fuel cell to produce the house hold electric.

I think 2015 toyota releasing their fully electric car, also I have seen cars on the internet converted to run on H2 stored in LPG tanks.

Again would welcome feedback

Regards
Arran.
arranp
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby Andyfteeze » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:32 pm

Wow, 7000b per month! THATS HUGH ! Mine is only under 1000b. But no pool or aircon usage.
Step one, energy conservation plan, urgent !! Drop your demand by at least 20%, then redo the sums. It can be done without sacrifices, just go for the low hanging "fruit".
i would have factored in about 7hrs per day. The three peak hrs probably generated more and the outer hrs less. If you can aford it, go bigger, even less dependancy.

Stage 2? Forget it. Are you crazy? :oops: :oops: :oops:

Storing h2 and O in tanks? Have you told your insurance company? They would have a FIT. Have you told your wife how volatile H2 and O stored in tanks are? Have you told your neighbours? You realise you have to advise the government and have you got a hazards plan? You do realise you should only store it in a controlled environment in as purely industrial area far away from other premises? There is a reason for this...... Its F****N DANGEROUS !!!
An LPG tank holding Hydrogen is a disaster awaiting to happen!

Find another bone to mull over, :lol:
Try biodiesel, easy to make and store. You can share it with your neighbours too! :D
Ask yourself, whats the end game?
If its economy, your thinking is based too much on yes it can be done and not on practicalities which in reality is a very expensive proposition. Maybe different in ten years time but I cant see how you can squeeze any more Hydrogen atoms into a fuel tank for the size and range required of a normal car, unless a major major breakthrough occurs
If its environmental, buy a bicycle, electric scooter or very economical car eg, Prius, VW Polo diesel, Volt, Tesla, eMerc or eBMW. And a few others.
Toyota , a fully electric car? Since when has the company of fifty stickers to the car jumped that far ahead? Remember GM have been working on H2 storage for close to thirty years but nothing on the horizon. They had special hydrides and sandwich panels under 100psi of pressure just to get 300odd km of range.
Add the cost of the tanks and a few billion dollars of research, not forgetting infrustructure. H2 for cars is still only a pipe dream in reality.
Batteries are a much much better proposition for future needs of an electric car.
Andyfteeze
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:29 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby arranp » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:58 am

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/h2homesystem.pdf

How Does One Store the Gases?
The hydrogen will be stored in two 0.47 cubic meter (125 gallon) propane tanks, and the oxygen will be stored in one propane tank.

REMEMBER: hydrogen gas is safe to store — hydrogen/air or hydrogen/oxygen mixtures are NOT safe to store! Put safety first! Safety is your
responsibility. It is our intention to give you the information you need to follow safe practices.

Each of our used propane tanks was cleaned thoroughly and hydrostatically tested to 13.8 bar (200 psig.). Pressure relief valves on each tank are set for 10.3 bar (150 psig.). A pressure switch is installed on the hydrogen tank feed line to shut off the electrolyzer power supply when the pressure reaches 6.9 bar (100 psig.), the rated maximum output pressure of the electrolyzer.

How Do We Purify the Gases?
The gas purification system is shown in more detail in the diagram on right. The hydrogen gas and the oxygen gas are purified by two different systems.

Image
arranp
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:04 am

Natural Gas at Small Scale
Uses steam reformation. Requires 15.9 million cubic feet (450,000 m3) of gas, which, if produced by small 500 kg/day reformers at the point of dispensing (i.e., the filling station), would equate to 777,000 reformers costing $1 trillion and producing 150 million tons of hydrogen gas annually. Obviates the need for distribution infrastructure dedicated to hydrogen. $3.00 per GGE (Gallons of Gasoline Equivalent)
Nuclear
Provides energy for electrolysis of water. Would require 240,000 tons of unenriched uranium — that's 2,000 600-megawatt power plants, which would cost $840 billion, or about $2.50 per GGE.[81]
Solar
Provides energy for electrolysis of water. Would require 2,500 kWh of sun per square meter, 113 million 40-kilowatt systems, which would cost $22 trillion, or about $9.50 per GGE.
Wind
Provides energy for electrolysis of water. At 7 meters per second average wind speed, it would require 1 million 2-MW wind turbines, which would cost $3 trillion, or about $3.00 per GGE.
Biomass
Gasification plants would produce gas with steam reformation. 1.5 billion tons of dry biomass, 3,300 plants which would require 113.4 million acres (460,000 km²) of farm to produce the biomass. $565 billion in cost, or about $1.90 per GGE
Coal
FutureGen plants use coal gasification then steam reformation. Requires 1 billion tons of coal or about 1,000 275-megawatt plants with a cost of about $500 billion, or about $1 per GGE.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5252
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby arranp » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:52 am

Instead of running the car on H2.

An interim step would be to combine the H2 with CO2 to produce CNG. The existing car (internal combustion engine) can be converted to run on CNG. I recall seeing several.

Are there as many CNG filling stations as LPG .
arranp
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby Andyfteeze » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:36 am

My my my, you are a dog with a bone! :shock:
What are you trying to achieve? Reinvent the wheel?
If you think you can brain storm and get solutions to YOUR FANTACY here, you ARE Mad!
I did my research on this subject 10 yrs ago. I just did a general google to see what info is out there today and I am afraid it hasnt changed much.
You will not get as far as the wankel engine, nuclear fusion or the orbital engine. All still in development and wont be ready tilll...................who knows! :lol:
You have lost perspective. :roll:
You think your going to be the next Bill Gates on this?
If you think I am being harsh on you, get this, Your not handling the truth!
Next you want us to help you build a space ship! Come down to earth first, then we can find somewhere to accomodate you, nearest asylum. :lol:
You have obviously spent a lot of time on this. Got every little detail sorted in your mind. Now go and price all this charming idea you have. Unless your an Indian billionare, you cant aford it. The limitations have already been described, yet you want to build this "bomb looking for a place to happen".
Stupidity does not equate to genius
I am no Einstein, but just a brief google search will get you all the info you want both for and against.
From what i have seen, battery powered electric cars wins hands down on all fronts just on what we have at hand. All these other esoteric fuels are ok as a thought bubble but have physical limitations. I can see your thinking, Hydrogen powers the universe. In a Sun, its cool but here on earth, it has limitations. We dont have the benefit of a few trillion square kilometers of storage. I forgot to mention that to get any useful range out of H2, storage becomes an issue. Its has a very low energy density. The best bang per cubic meters is liquification. This implies cryogenics, dangerous and expensive. Thats the reality. But Just basic maths tells me your not thinking clearly.
Let me give an example. Assume a solar array of 10kw.
50% efficiency converting water to H2, lose another 20% in storage And then overcome the thermal dynamic limitations of an ICE 30%. 9% of energy used. Makes petrol look good! Seems PRETTY DUMB to persevere with. Charge a battery with solar panels, 10% loss and run an electric motor, 90% efficient, 80% of the energy is used.
When absolutely no other source of energy is available, sure it suits the purpose, but we are not in this position.
We are lucky that peak oil is still a bit into the future so we have a few spare years to develop alternatives, and I am all for it, just keep these things in perspective. There is no conspiracy, just reality.
Andyfteeze
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:29 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby Andyfteeze » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:49 am

Roger, you make a compelling case with only one draw back with most of the figures.
You need to factor in the cost of excess pollution into the atmosphere. At the moment, this is never factored into the equation.
But the time has come for this info to be added. No point saying petrol is cheap then years later having to find The money to clean up and it costs more. Same with nuclear. Notice how the clean up is always put off to some time in the future?
The ones that have closed shop, ie Chernabol and Fawkashima have cost a lot more than anticipated, :roll:
Just saying........... :lol:
Andyfteeze
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:29 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby arranp » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:49 am

I not sure batteries are they way forward because 2 reasons:
i) limited number of charge cycles ( think about your mobile phone )
ii) re-charge time is too long

Therefore in my limited opinion, vehicles with H2 tanks and PEM fuel cells is the future solution, because the re-fill time maybe similar to that of LPG. The only current problem we have H2 that I can see is infrastructure. However this can be overcome, unlike oil, everyone has the ingredients at home, water and electric to make H2.

Solar panels is pretty much already accepted solution for your homes electric.

Fuel Cell Electric Vehicls ( FCEVs ), I guess will not be available in thailand for some time, therefore the only interim solution I can think of is using the electric from solar, to generate H2 and CO2 to create SNG then compress to CNG.

I've done the calculations to replace the home electric, 7,000 baht per month bill can be replaced by 364,000 baht solar array 10kWh ( 40 x 250 watt panels ).

Still working on the figures for H2 and CO2 consumption, storage, generation.

Take a look at what this guy has done.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

Many people thought Tesla was mad proposing the dangerous AC current instead of the less dangerous DC.
arranp
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby fredlk » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:07 pm

arranp wrote:Take a look at what this guy has done.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

Wow, only 17 million Baht. :lol:
User avatar
fredlk
 
Posts: 5879
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:11 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby pattayapope » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:45 pm

Gents let’s try and keep your comments civil and if you don't have any constructive suggestions then please keep your comments to yourself, we are all amateurs here after all. Technology is getting better and I think we should be looking at alternative ways to conserve energy and our monthly base costs. We have a couple of active members who have installed Solar power systems to supplement their energy requirements with good results so far and if Arran wants to go the Solar path then good luck but I think there are still issues getting the PEA to pay for electricity so maybe a smaller system would be more suitable. :D
pattayapope
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Huai Yai Chonburi

Re: Solar Power

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:49 pm

I had no idea we have budding multi-millionaires on this forum, which is why I posted the cost for each unit of power. Of course I didn't add all the ongoing running costs of each. Hydrogen being a real bugger for storage. The Germans actually store it underground because of what it does to steel up here on terra firma, but that parts never talked about.
Batteries are no solution as they have to be replaced every 7 years. Which raises the question has anyone seen what happens to a 7 year old Prius? By the time it's 7 years old it is kaput as the Germans say, so you have to buy a new one. It's also the reason Top Gear did a number of shows about the Prius until Toyota banned them from using/letting them have their cars to test. And that's just for batteries as a back-up on a petrol driven system. And of course everyone else who makes a car had to get on the green machine because of the stupid way governments tax cars.
I have read quite recently that paper will replace batteries as the storage material of the future. There has also been talk of using compressed air as a propellant.
But I think we are going about all this in the wrong way because we are still using the combustion motor which is years out of date and never better than 40% efficient, so we either have to go all electric, solar, hydro and wind generation or nothing, but the cost to do that, with all that oil and coal sitting in the ground makes it a no goer.
Look at Nissan and the other more advanced makers of cars, the longest their vehicle can go for is 150 clicks on battery power. On hydrogen it's a bit further but then when they run out, that's it fini kaput. The cost of the infrastructure is massive to support a hydrogen based community and to build the cars is in the millionaire range.
arranp,
I appreciate
arranp wrote:Take a look at what this guy has done.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... gen-house/

But the first thing that jumped out at me was the cost...... and being a building forum that included his mansion and as mentioned the size of his massive "garage" to house everything in.
I also noted in your first post this:
arranp wrote:The Provincial Electric Authority, provides 2 meters, the electric produced goes through the SELL meter, the electric used comes through the BUY meter.
You've just missed one thing and that's the licence to produce. When solar power was first touted I was down to my supplier EGAT to get the application along with a lot of others but we all walked away with our tail between our legs except from the commercial suppliers who got all the licences. It has now been two years since the "scheme" started and both me and a neighbour (who has a factory) are still waiting for a reply, any reply whatsoever.
So how did you get your two meters? How did you get approval? What office of PEA did you apply through? Are just some of the questions that were raised in another solar thread.
The only member on this forum who ignored the powers that be and put in his own system is the only one to have solar power but with no storage facility (no batteries) for back-up, he just feeds the grid during the day and uses PEA during the darkness. He's probably got his money back by now, but it was always iffy and 350,000 Baht are a lot of ifs if things don't go your way.
So going from the hypothetical to reality please explain how you did it?

Although this system will not provide electric during outages at night, it should eliminate the electric bills. At least this is my thoughts so far.

I would welcome feed back.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5252
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:59 pm

pattayapope wrote:Arran wants to go the Solar path then good luck but I think there are still issues getting the PEA to pay for electricity so maybe a smaller system would be more suitable.

As my last cut and paste was convoluted (the last paragraph of my previous post) I would like to know how arranp got approval from PEA. I can't get it from EGAT and neither can a neighbour who owns a factory. It would appear, after two years of trying to get approval for a small system that only the big producers are the winners.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5252
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby arranp » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:17 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
pattayapope wrote:Arran wants to go the Solar path then good luck but I think there are still issues getting the PEA to pay for electricity so maybe a smaller system would be more suitable.

As my last cut and paste was convoluted (the last paragraph of my previous post) I would like to know how arranp got approval from PEA. I can't get it from EGAT and neither can a neighbour who owns a factory. It would appear, after two years of trying to get approval for a small system that only the big producers are the winners.


I'm doing the research at the moment, I nearly finished paying for the land, and will start the build after that.

I asked the question about the metering here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/708644-solar-power-question/?p=8561730
arranp
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby arranp » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:41 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:I had no idea we have budding multi-millionaires on this forum, which is why I posted the cost for each unit of power. Of course I didn't add all the ongoing running costs of each. Hydrogen being a real bugger for storage. The Germans actually store it underground because of what it does to steel up here on terra firma, but that parts never talked about.
Batteries are no solution as they have to be replaced every 7 years. Which raises the question has anyone seen what happens to a 7 year old Prius? By the time it's 7 years old it is kaput as the Germans say, so you have to buy a new one. It's also the reason Top Gear did a number of shows about the Prius until Toyota banned them from using/letting them have their cars to test. And that's just for batteries as a back-up on a petrol driven system. And of course everyone else who makes a car had to get on the green machine because of the stupid way governments tax cars.
I have read quite recently that paper will replace batteries as the storage material of the future. There has also been talk of using compressed air as a propellant.
But I think we are going about all this in the wrong way because we are still using the combustion motor which is years out of date and never better than 40% efficient, so we either have to go all electric, solar, hydro and wind generation or nothing, but the cost to do that, with all that oil and coal sitting in the ground makes it a no goer.
Look at Nissan and the other more advanced makers of cars, the longest their vehicle can go for is 150 clicks on battery power. On hydrogen it's a bit further but then when they run out, that's it fini kaput. The cost of the infrastructure is massive to support a hydrogen based community and to build the cars is in the millionaire range.
arranp,
I appreciate
arranp wrote:Take a look at what this guy has done.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... gen-house/

But the first thing that jumped out at me was the cost...... and being a building forum that included his mansion and as mentioned the size of his massive "garage" to house everything in.
I also noted in your first post this:
arranp wrote:The Provincial Electric Authority, provides 2 meters, the electric produced goes through the SELL meter, the electric used comes through the BUY meter.
You've just missed one thing and that's the licence to produce. When solar power was first touted I was down to my supplier EGAT to get the application along with a lot of others but we all walked away with our tail between our legs except from the commercial suppliers who got all the licences. It has now been two years since the "scheme" started and both me and a neighbour (who has a factory) are still waiting for a reply, any reply whatsoever.
So how did you get your two meters? How did you get approval? What office of PEA did you apply through? Are just some of the questions that were raised in another solar thread.
The only member on this forum who ignored the powers that be and put in his own system is the only one to have solar power but with no storage facility (no batteries) for back-up, he just feeds the grid during the day and uses PEA during the darkness. He's probably got his money back by now, but it was always iffy and 350,000 Baht are a lot of ifs if things don't go your way.
So going from the hypothetical to reality please explain how you did it?

Although this system will not provide electric during outages at night, it should eliminate the electric bills. At least this is my thoughts so far.

I would welcome feed back.



I'm in agreement, the internal combustion engine is not the way of the future, due the facts
i) runs on fossil fuel
ii) requires an oxygen atmosphere

Our eventual aim is to travel beyond this planet, get up out of our arm chairs, quit balancing our cheque books every month, to find another habitat where we as a human race can continue to live before this sun runs out of power or we blow ourselves up. To do this we move toward any technology to do with electrons and protons and away from fossil fuels, oxygen and the internal combustion engine. Hence the electric motor, and later ion drives ( but that is much later, never the less the same direction away from fossil fuel and combustible engines).

Until the electric motor arrives in Thailand, at home one can generate CNG from solar and retrofit their current internal combustion engine. Then later when electric motors are available to buy in here, do away with CO2 generate but continue with the H2 electrolysis, fill your car up with H2 at home, or someone else's, anywhere there is water and electric (solar). Think of internet access away from home, umm, wifi hot spots. why not H2 hot spots :-). we don't need fuel stations like with oil, refined and shipped in, the ingredients water and electric are here in every home.

Protons, electrons, and electric motors, are the way forward.

So I'm interested to learn what I can do from home, to eliminate fuel bills, run my car, geo-thermal to cool the house, harvest rain water etc. Rather than sit in my arm chair, I like to try and turn a corner.
arranp
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Re: Solar Power

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:17 pm

arranp wrote:So I'm interested to learn what I can do from home, to eliminate fuel bills, run my car, geo-thermal to cool the house, harvest rain water etc. Rather than sit in my arm chair, I like to try and turn a corner.

You may have asked the question on Thai Visa and they also gave you the answer. It's a no no and you can't get it.
Both EGAT and PEA refuse to allow households to run solar panels and feed back into the grid even though they claim they allow it. Whoever wrote they supply two meters lives in another country. Egat have single meters that do both, just like they have single meters for off peak and peak electricity use and they are one and the same meter. I know I have one at my townhouse and have applied for another at this house. That will save you at least 2,000 baht a month.
To get solar power you need special approval from "someone" nobody has met yet. The law says you're entitled to it, but getting it installed legally is another matter, let alone getting the application approved.
Personally I would love to fork out 350,000 Baht and get a return on my money, but it ain't going to happen in the near or distant future. TIT.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5252
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Next

Return to electric

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest